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I'm thinking of trying some Dovo Red paste. The problem I see is that the estimated grit is between 2 and 4 micron. That's something like 5000-7000 grit. If I finish on a stone that is 12000 grit, will using the pastes be going backwards or am I looking at it wrong?
If you have finished the blade with a 12k and it is shaving fine, why are you going to use paste. If the shave is not what you want I dont think honing a blade on DOVO red is going to help. If you are experimenting cool-
I don't hone myself. My razor was finished on a Naniwa 12k and I'm more concerned with touch-ups. I've been shaving with it for a couple of weeks and sooner or later I will need to touch it up. I like looks of the Dovo pastes.
You wanna use the Dovo black paste after a 12k grit stone. The black paste does not come in a tube but is a putty type material. Or you could use chromium oxide (Crox)Quote:
Originally Posted by danxaz
So the red would be going backwards. But after 12k a paste is really not necessary. I do like to use Crox as a final polish.
a Norton 8k can give you a great shave. Heck, you even get a fine shave after a 1k but I would not recommend it.
"So the red would be going backwards. But after 12k a paste is really not necessary. I do like to use Crox as a final polish."
Even after using the razor for a while? I think I;m having trouble understanding bevel angles, wear, etc.
As part of your regimen to maintain the razor's edge you can use the 12k about once a week. After time, the 12k might not be enough so you need to go to a lower grit or micron, such as using the DOVO red paste.
Eventually, the bevel needs to be reset to obtain an edge which requires even lower grit. Bevel resetting, as I understand, cannot be done with paste. You must use a stone. However, you can keep an edge going for a long time using a 12k stone and DOVO red/green paste. Or once you get comfortable you move to a stone like the Norton 4/8.
As far as bevel angles, this is created naturally by placing the razor on the stone and honing. It is built into the design. Once a bevel is formed you will get an edge. You can even get a great edge off a 1k grit stone because that is where the bevel is set and thus the edge is created. The rest of the steps are for refining and maintaining the razor.
Hope this helps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by danxaz
Is interesting to note,most of the true honemeisters on this site have done a huge amt.of testing on pastes and sprays.
But do they use them on a regular basis?
I would bet not,can pastes and sprays re-fresh an edge? to a point perhaps.Are pastes and sprays a panacea to a true finishing Hone?
do they work long term? what is the allure newbs have for pastes and sprays? and why? Cost? assumed ease of use?
I have tried all the pastes and sprays. They do things to a point,I wanted easy,quik.I found my finishing hones to be far superior, Albiet far more difficult to master,just takes time.carry on.
To answer your original question yes you can use dovo red to touch up your blade. You would need a bunch of laps to get a good edge but the dovo red will give a nice shaving edge.
However if your blade has recently been touched up on a 12 k stone you would be going backwards slightly. But if you use it for awhile and start to notice that the edge is not good anymore your 12k edge is more or less gone at that point. You then can touch it up with the dovo red and I would not consider that going backwards.
Here is a post I did on paste awhile back and the dovo paste are what I mainly use http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...ugh-guide.html
This is exactly what I was visualizing. The only thing I have as far as a finishing hone is a Boss Barber Hone. What I was hoping to be able to do is use pastes until they stop working, then hit the hone followed by the pastes. I read on here about a guy who kept his razor going with a Barber Hone for years and Lynn says as much on the wiki. I like the simplicity of this. I figure, if my edge isn't feeling as keen, it's safe to say that the 12k finish is gone, which is what you are saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Castel33
If your edge is shave ready there is no need for it to see anything but plain linen and leather until you start to notice a deterioration in the feel as you shave. if you catch it early a few laps on a barber hone or other finisher is all you need. if the edge is undamaged you would probably never need to worry about the bevel. yes you can use pastes to maintain for a very long time. But, eventually you will need a hone.
Though I have pastes I only use them on certain razors that seem to just like pastes. I prefer to just use a Coticule or Escher to maintain the edges.
I don't know about now, but for some time, Lynn was going to a diamond spray on hard wool felt to finish all of his razors. Perhaps he will comment on his findings and whether or not he's still doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
I sometimes finish with chrome ox on the SRD webbing. I like it a lot, and have received positive feedback on it from others. I really don't think it matters how a razor is finished, paste vs hone, but maybe I simply have not experimented enough.
Paste can definitely refresh an edge, if its not too far gone, though maybe not indefinitely. I would say a pasted strop is definitely easier to use and definitely less expensive than the average finishing hone.
To respond to the OP, there is more to the equation, be it with pastes or hones, than just the grit rating. How the grit wears, how much the grit is exposed above the binder/material, the shape of the grit, how fast the binder breaks down to expose more/fresh grit, how flexible the surface is (more for strops), etc etc all matter. In order to figure out what works where for you, you'll need to experiment. You can definitely draw off of the experience of others, and you can use grit ratings as a guide, but grit ratings are not the end all and be all of it.
I can't figure out what that other guy is even talking about Dylan and his bet is not out of any kind of familiar knowledge in my opinion. I think the guy is just contrary sometimes because this is the internet. Us old guys can just be contrary sometimes don't cha know..... I think the biggest problem with pastes and sprays, especially for new guys is that they use either too much media, too many strokes or too much pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
In any case, I still use both .5 micron diamond spray and chromium oxide spray and paste all on felt for the most part these days. Occasionally, I will use the chromium oxide crayon on the poly webbing or cotton canvas too. I still find that 4-5 strokes at the end of a honing regiment unless I am using a 20K or 30K stone adds that little extra smooth and sharp to an edge. I still also find that 4-7 strokes is a sweet spot for refreshing when a razor starts to pull and can be done about once a month for a long time before needing to go back to the finishing hone, YMMV. I still hone razors 4-6 hours a day almost 7 days a week, so I can only give you my opinion on what works for me, but I can tell you that if something does not provide results consistently, it does not last long over here unless I am just experimenting.
You can shave off an 8K comfortably. You can shave off a 12K or finishing stone more comfortably. On the finishing stones and even higher grit finishing stones, YMMV depending on your ability, the razor and your agenda.
Have fun.
Lynn,do you use pastes and sprays on all the blades you hone??
I don't as on most of them I finish with a 20K or 30K stone these days. Sometimes if one is just not how I like it, I might do one or two strokes on a sprayed chromium oxide felt strop I have hanging in the laboratory to get it there. If that doesn't work, back to the hones. I used to do 10 strokes religiously on either .5 micron diamond spray or chromium oxide after the finishing stone simply because I like the results and the consistency. It's not that you can't get a nice shave off just the stones, but this is just my preference for a better edge and shave based on my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
The only other thing I can say here is that I have found that what is working today, may not work as well tomorrow or something may come along that works better for you. I think that's why I still keep experimenting even though the process I use today is working so well. Not 100% but close. There is always one where the bevel wasn't right or something just didn't work on that razor and another go around is needed, but it's not often. The other thing is that many razors shave differently based on size, width, balance, wear and even the way they are pinned. So many variables. I think that's why it can be so hard for new guys considering some of the razors I am seeing them try to hone and shave with.
Have fun.
I've got a friend in south Jersey who has two grits of the Dovo paste and he really has had some great edges off of it. I have no experience with them but I'm hoping to try out one of his pasted strops the next time I see him.
If I were buying Dovo paste, I'd try to get the finest one, or the two finest. Do a few strokes on it and see what happens.
Michael
Now I am really confused. If you're finishing on a 20 or 30k stone, do I have to touch up my razor on that high grit to make any difference? So, in general, to touch-up a razor one needs to go back to the highest grit stone it was finished on?
Let me be clear what I'm trying for here. I have little to no interest in honing from start to finish. Not yet anyway. I have one razor, A Boker King Cutter. My mane interest is in using this razor daily, which I do, and aintaining the edge as long as possible before having to send it to get honed agian. When I do send it out, do I need to know the Honmeister's finishing set-up so that I can duplicate it on touch-ups? Or is my little barber hone good enough? Or do I need to get a higher grit hone to touch-up?
If you want the same type of edge you would have to duplicate. However, if you drop down to a lower grit you can still get a fine edge.
So, for example, if I had a razor honed by Lynn, finished on a 20k stone and liked that edge I would have to get a 20k stone. Plus, you have to take other things into account like skill level. I am sure Lynn's edge of a 20k would be better than my edge of a 20k.
Not trying to brown nose, he just has more experience than me. Luckily, one day he will die and I can catch up. ;)
For maintenance you could just use some Crox. Will it be as good as 20k? Don't know. That will be for you, the end user, to decide. Honestly, I think you want a concrete answer and there are some many things to consider.
Having said that, my set up, that works at the moment is a diamond spray regimen and crox. It works to keep the edge maintained. I use 1 micron, .5 micron and finish with Crox.
Someone could say that this is terrible because they only use the finest Japanese water stone or some other expensive stone. I say pooey and when you feel like buying me a 500 dollar plus stone I will gladly use it.
Overall, do not try to get to tweaked over this stuff. It will in time and you will get little lightning bolt moments of understanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by danxaz
Mephisto has lead you in the right direction.
Just to give you an idea of what you can achieve with paste here is my typical honing method of late.
I use a king 1k hone to set my bevel. I then go to a four sided leather paddle strop that has a stropping surface of 12in long and 1.25in wide pasted with 9 micron diamond, dovo green, dovo red and dovo black.
I do 200 laps on the 9 micron, then 500 laps a piece on all the dovo paste.
I then use that razor till it starts to pull. Once that happens the razor needs a touch up.
Typically about 100 laps on black would bring my edge back good. If not I will then do 100 more laps. If nether of those work I drop down to the 9 micron and start over.
In your case you only have dovo red. So when you start to notice your razor is not performing the way you like you would go to you pasted strop that has the dovo red. The number of laps you would have to do to bring the razor to shave ready will be different cause your paddle will be different but that is something you will have to learn as you go.
I am sort of doing the same thing as Castel. I set the bevel on a Norton 1k. However, you do not have to worry about bevel setting yet.
I use a four sided paddle strop next with 9 micron, 3 micron and 1 micron diamond paste or spray. I sometimes will go to a Norton 4/8 though just to see the difference.
I am thinking of going 9-6-3 for my next set up though. I finish with .5 diamond spray and crox. To maintain my razor I just go back to the crox and .5 spray.
Well I'll be damned if I don't feel better. Especially after learning that some stop with stones after the 1K mark. Thanks all for the help. I think I will be fineQuote:
Originally Posted by Mephisto
Btw, I am not sure if this will help or hurt but here is a link for Thier Issard's philosophy on maintenance. Btw, I do not buy the TI bio-diamond stuff-way too much imo. But you can substitute it for other stuff like DOVO's pastes, Hand America and Norton.
http://www.thiers-issard.co.uk/Sharp...onsDiamond.pdf
Interesting read Mephisto. It pretty much follows how I do it and the way you do it.
I would be interest in when that was written by them. I know I never came across it when I first started looking about three years ago. I had to dig around in the archives here and on other sites to gather up my info on what would be needed ( and most of that was a year or two older then that.) and then do my own trail and error to find what worked best.
No idea when it was written. I just stumbled on it by accident. I did the same as you, reading here and there to get info. I was on the TI-UK website looking at the bio-diamond pastes and it was there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Castel33