When does honing end and paste stropping begin?

Hi All,

So I am researching and I have a questions regarding the Thiers Issard Bio-diamond paste system (6, 3, 1, .25) and how it fits in with hones.

If someone had say Shapton GS 1K, 4K, 8K, 16K and then started in on the pastes how much overlap could there be? Does the 6 micron paste replace some of those hones?
How would that work with other hones like Norton or Naniwa?

I am just borrowing a friends straight right now, so before I invest I want to be sure I get the right sort of setup.

Thanks and cheers!

Welcome to SRP

The question I think you need answered is "How am I going to maintain my razor?". My answer assuming you aren't planing on honing ebay specials: Start with .5 micron Crox on a strop and, a fine synthetic stone like GS 16k. For further research read What hone(s), paste(s), or spray(s) do I need?

For your actual questions

Of the pastes the one that would likely improve the edge off 16k is the .25. BTW diamond pastes are generally considered to give a harsh edge. Using diamond on hard felt seems to smooth it out.

Yes you can use low grit pastes to replace hones, but it increases the difficulty of obtaining or maintaining a flat bevel.

Enjoy the learning curves.

Jonathan

Diamond pasted strops are used edge trailing as opposed to edge leading. The 3 um is about 8k equivalent and the 1 um is about 14k equivalent. If you get a shapton setup as you describe, you could use maybe a .5 micron crox on paddle or linen(I like linen). The others arent necesary IMO. I have used pasted leather, linen, felt and balsa for crox or diamond slurry and never larger than 1 um. I like hones and use dmts for bevels, norton 4/8k naniwa 12k and crox on linen. Theres a million ways to skin a cat though.

I don't think you'd want to overlap pastes and hones. Usually, after a 12k or so, one would go to chrome ox (I think .5) or .5 or .25 diamond, or whatever is preferred. And that is the key word. In that range, it's entirely down to personal preference.

If you don't have hones, you can do a paste progression instead. Not something I've ever done or seen in person, but I have read about it.

Just to echo what holli4 said, if you already have a hone set (whether it be Norton, Shapton, Naniwa) pastes should only be used to refine a shave ready edge (8k+). You can also use them for the occasional touch up as well.

The paste-only approach seems to be more popular in Europe, especially Germany IIRC. There aren't many members here at all that follow that procedure, most are rock hounds :)

As you gain more experiance,i think you will realize pastes,sprays, potions, cannot hold a candle to using and mastering the proper stones.
been there,done that,got rid of them all.When i learned how to hone,but I still use the TT word:) TAPE Is MY FRIEND.

Welcome! An idea, Raymond. Go to member introductions. Introduce and give your locale. You will get some advise! ;)

If you had a 16k stone you wouldnt need pastes. IMO

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

If you had a 16k stone you wouldnt need pastes. IMO

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best advice yet.

I think it depends on what you want to do with getting the optimum sharpness/smoothness out of the razor that suits your preference. I personally know world class honers who find no problem with honing through say 12 or 16k and then gilding the lily with paste. I know one who used to use the norton set, 1k, 4k, 8k and then final finish on diamond paste on balsa. His razors were as sharp as any I've ever seen.

My approach has been to really want to learn to get the most out of the hones without the addition of pastes. I've got them. Chrom-ox, diamond paste and spray on hanging felt, paddle and balsa. I've experimented with them and , following the stones they are good. I was on a mission though and wanted to really learn to hone so I pretty much avoided the paste/spray and kept working the hones.

I was getting fairly good results my first year or two but was more or less following by rote without "knowing" what I was doing. After 5 to 6 years of messing with it I feel like now I know what I'm doing with the hones and the bonus for me is I'm happy with the results I get with the hones alone.

For the end user who isn't looking at honing with stones as the 'holy grail,'but just wants a sharp/smooth shaving edge, I would say a chosera 1k for bevel setting, the norton 4/8 for sharpening and finishing and whatever pastes/sprays and see if that gives you the satisfactory edge. Throw in a D8C DMT 325 diamond plate for lapping the stones.

So IMO it depends on what the goal is. I would definitely learn to hone with stones though. Kind of like jazz musician Charlie "Yardbird" Parker said, "Master your instrument, then forget all that stuff and play."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

The paste-only approach seems to be more popular in Europe, especially Germany IIRC. There aren't many members here at all that follow that procedure, most are rock hounds :)

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Guess I am the oddball on this forum. I do almost all paste except for setting the bevel.

Here is a post I did on pasted strops.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...ugh-guide.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Castel33

Guess I am the oddball on this forum. I do almost all paste except for setting the bevel.

Here is a post I did on pasted strops.

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You left out the link.

Sorry here it is:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...ugh-guide.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RaymondR

Hi All,

So I am researching and I have a questions regarding the Thiers Issard Bio-diamond paste system (6, 3, 1, .25) and how it fits in with hones.

If someone had say Shapton GS 1K, 4K, 8K, 16K and then started in on the pastes how much overlap could there be? Does the 6 micron paste replace some of those hones?
How would that work with other hones like Norton or Naniwa?

I am just borrowing a friends straight right now, so before I invest I want to be sure I get the right sort of setup.

Thanks and cheers!

---

Pasted leather on wood is an economical way to maintain one man's razor. Pasted leather
tends to clog with swarf and be less effective when a lot of razors are involved. Thus honemasters
tend to avoid it...

The modern hones Shapton, Norton or Naniwa work magic by comparison but cost more.
With hones you need something to keep them flat for which a large DMT works.
The Norton 4K/8K combo can be followed by the Naniwa 12K for a fine shave
or just stick with all Naniwa hones.

A stack of Shapton hones... well they just work.... a Shapton 16K finish is darn close to a Naniwa 12K.

Shapton hones have a grit displayed. If the same grit size was pushed down into leather
it would cut as if it was a finer grit. You will find paste on hard backed leather to often be less
aggressive than a hone of equal grit.

The TI diamond paste system starts out with an aggressive 6micron and ends with a rather
nice polish at 0.25micron... I would put 6 micron at close to a Norton 4K. It will not reset a
bevel but will tidy up an edge dull from normal shaving.

My first "Feather sharp" result was with abrasive film on glass 15 micron, 5 micron, 0.3 micron
Film is funny and lets you take these big jumps from a 1K equivalent at 15 micron to a 6k like 5 Micron
to a spooky sharp 0.3 micron edge..

So yes you have overlap if you start with a Norton 4k/8K work horse and finish with the 3,1,0.25 paste.

What does your friend use to hone with?

Wow. I didn't expect that many replies that soon!
First of all, thank you for your comments, I will try and and answer everything asked - reverse order.

niftyshaving: My friend has a 4k/8k norton combo, a paddle strop with a couple pastes, not exactly sure, but I think the sort available from whippeddog.com -red and green?

Castel33: Thanks for pointing out the guide! I have some reading to do!

JimmyHAD: My goal is to have a foundation of stones/pastes/etc so I can maintain a razor on my own. Given the comments seen here I would lean towards some rocks, now. :)

pixelfixed/nun2sharp: Good to know!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

If you had a 16k stone you wouldnt need pastes. IMO

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

best advice yet.

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sharptonn: I will go and introduce myself after this post, thanks!

Ryan82: Good to know actual practices. I like opinions, and what you guys are really using.

holli4pirating: I have seen the chromox paste for finishing, and I might have to look into that.

bill3152: Well I am beginning to see that there are indeed many ways to skin/hone a cat!

Datsots: It doesn't surprise me that bevel setting is best left to a stone. Even though the TI setup sounds good, in the end it is just a paste.

Thanks again for the information. I will be checking back, of course. Cheers!

I guess I'm bias from trying edges that used paste to substitute for proper stone work. When guys write about wanting to take up honing, I tell them about smooth comfortable shave from an 8k level. If I understand correctly, the honorable Randydance was the first to speak of the 8k edge as a gateway to any further work. (Thank You!)

I'd almost say that its time for the pastes when you don't need them to get a good shave from the stones. With proper stone work, they can add/tweak the feel to a particular attribute you like. I had pronounced a whole bunch of hard steel heavy grinds as 'silent shavers'. I prefer feedback - like we get from Robert W.'s SRP special. I found a bunch of heavy grinds started giving feedback after only 16-20 INCHES of stropping on .5 diamond on hard felt. When the stone work is done adequately, the rest is gravy - try as many finishes as you can. I've enjoyed CBN as much as any, unless its a silent, heavy grind mentioned above.