Removing stuck blade from TI real frameback?

I debated whether or not to ask about this one but fearing doing damage to the blade I decided to eat my pride and get some input. I did a search the site but couldn't find anything...

I managed to get a old TI real frameback off the 'bay a bit ago and it showed up in pretty decent shape for an auction blade. Looks like just a bit of sanding and the frame and blade can be taken to full mirror or a nice satin - I'll decide how to finish it later. Scales will need to be replaced but that just gives me an excuse to create some creative new ones.

The problem is that after removing the set screw in the front, the blade won't come loose. I suspect it may have a touch of rust up under the frame and that may be holding it tight. It has what appears to be very sharp and deep etching (says Theirs Issard) so I really want to reuse the blade itself.

I know we've all experimented with quite a few chemicals for various things, but I was wondering if anyone has successfully used anything to free up a frameback's blade that may have rusted tight to the frame? No worries about damaging the scales since they'll be gone in the morning. I thought about various products to soak it in overnight but figured a few of you have solved this one already so why re-invent the solution?

Kroil
or
PB Blaster

The Kroil is easier and better, but the PB is available at Wallymart

Thanks Glen - Kroil it is. Did some research and it looks like spending a few $ more and waiting a few days for the shipment is worth it. Hell I was thinking about Liquid Wrench which probably would have melted the blade or something equally undesirable (like not work at all or stain it too badly to sand out). The wait will give me time to design some scales anyway.

One of the Gunshops should have Kroil in stock

Just out of curiousity, Liquid Wrench actually sounds like a good idea. Has anyone tried it?

One trick when things are stuck but still should be able to come apart is to put it in the ultrasonic cleaner, it can vibrate anything loose.

It's my opinion that if Kroil doesn't free a rusty part, nothing short of a torch will. The stuff is awesome. As mentioned already, gun stores may carry it. I've also seen it at a local wood stove dealer, might check one of those if you have trouble finding it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skipnord

Just out of curiousity, Liquid Wrench actually sounds like a good idea. Has anyone tried it?

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Yep it works too. Most any real penetrating oil will make a good attempt.

IME
Kroil is just the best, period I have not found any better in years.

PB blaster is much like LW but seems to work a bit faster and a bit better I use it on the Tractor etc:
LW works it is the standard of all these procucts..

I have used the vinegar soak and then dried and kroiled the blade. Tapping the spine on a hard surface will vibrate the oil into all the hidden spaces. I also padded a small vise grips and used it to wiggle the blade a bit at first and then more and more. If at first it doesn't wiggle penetrating oil, some taps, and a bit of time, some taps, and try again.
I have done about five of them so far and none were without some work.
Do Not Lose the Screw!! It is an odd size that I have not been able to match and today I am taking a frame to a watch/clock maker to see if the horological community has a replacement. Thanks for the reminder!
~Richard
PS. Have appointment with clockmaker for Friday! Watch?? this space.:)

PPS I do hold the removed blade with a strong magnet to sand the sides of it on a piece of wet dry placed on a softer hard felt equivalent surface to allow the paper to conform to the blade. Don't overdo the top of the blade though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geezer

I have used the vinegar soak and then dried and kroiled the blade. Tapping the spine on a hard surface will vibrate the oil into all the hidden spaces. I also padded a small vise grips and used it to wiggle the blade a bit at first and then more and more. If at first it doesn't wiggle penetrating oil, some taps, and a bit of time, some taps, and try again.
I have done about five of them so far and none were without some work.
Do Not Lose the Screw!! It is an odd size that I have not been able to match and today I am taking a frame to a watch/clock maker to see if the horological community has a replacement. Thanks for the reminder!
~Richard
PS. Have appointment with clockmaker for Friday! Watch?? this space.:)

PPS I do hold the removed blade with a strong magnet to sand the sides of it on a piece of wet dry placed on a softer hard felt equivalent surface to allow the paper to conform to the blade. Don't overdo the top of the blade though.

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Some more great info there! Yup I was thinking that the screws were unique - have about 5 or 6 other real framebacks myself that need a clean up so this will come in handy repeatedly.

If you have trouble finding the screws I believe there are a few guys in SoCal on here that may be able to help if they're anywhere near Redondo Beach. If it's still there (been 15 years or so) I used to live in RPV and used a little watchmaker's shop in Redondo a few times for bringing really old wrist watches and pocket watches back to life. Wish I could recall the name of it. It's on the south end of the beach blvd in that little area before heading uphill to PV. IF someone is close-by there let me know and I'll search a bit harder.

Screw sizes for removable blade framebacks.

Yesterday PS. Have appointment with clockmaker for Friday! Watch?? this space.

Well, the clock maker checked the screw sizes. against his screw cutting dies. (Jewelers' screw plate)

The answer was that most were / are Metric 2.5mm diameter x 0.5 thread. With a socket head they are at your local hobby shop.

And...some are 2.5mm diameter by 0.45mm threading. They are available on line and mostly from sources on the 'bay in packs of 50 or 100 or so for cheap price.

And all were about 5-6mm long.

I used: (Screw, 2.5mm 0.45mm) for a search on the "Bay
~Richard
PS. Cheese head would be the closest to historical usage. ( My guess was many have been replaced over the years )
Attachment 143782
Have fun!

PPS. I just ordered a pack of the 2.5'x 0.45 pitch. Will send out some if needed. PM me if so. Will have by the end of the month. Nov.1 or so

Great job finding this! Out of curiosity, I just double checked and the TI set screw on the blade I'm looking at seems about that size but the screwdriver slot is at the top of the screw itself - not in a head - just a straight screw with a slot at the top. Have you come across any without a head of sorts? Hope I'l never need a replacement, but if I ever do now I know where to look.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AirColorado

Great job finding this! Out of curiosity, I just double checked and the TI set screw on the blade I'm looking at seems about that size but the screwdriver slot is at the top of the screw itself - not in a head - just a straight screw with a slot at the top. Have you come across any without a head of sorts? Hope I'l never need a replacement, but if I ever do now I know where to look.

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Yes, some of them have the screw almost invisible in the spine. That may have been the original way to do it. The screwdrivers furnished were watchmaker set screw sized or some were slightly larger which would then have required a head on the screw to tighten them.
Hone it and enjoy it!
~Richard

Thanks Geez - about the oil, I ordered an 8oz can of Kroil from a guy on the bay from MO and it got here 2 days later. The TI is now sitting on my bench with the screw off (and safely stowed). I put a few drops of Kroil into the screw hole and noticed that it quickly worked its way down inside the frame. So I'm letting it work for a few hours sitting spine down. We'll see how well it works later on.

Well new day, new week, same stuck TI blade... The Kroil went in well, spread quickly under the frame and sat overnight. This morning, same well stuck blade. I had a momentary urge to partially wrap the frame in leather, put it into my vice and start slamming the back of the blade with a rubber mallet - but I resisted. Since I have a few other stuck frameback blades in other razors I figured I might as well slow down and work this through logically - though a blowtorch is tempting.

Any ideas?

As you can see, the blade is in good shape. There was some minor rust that I brushed out but can't see any now anywhere. Bad picture but you can get the general idea below. That little thing below the blade is the lock screw that I'm protecting.

Attachment 144002

I dunno, how about alternating freezing and warming cycles with some light taping?

Bob

The blade tilts out with the tang end of the blade coming out last. I have hand held the spine and gently tapped the toe of the blade away from the spine to get some wiggle to start the process. After the first ones, I did use more force. If you consider the holding materials as a glue of sorts, you will be correct. They are not really hard but are sticky! Years of soap and corrosion will be a really strong glue to hold that blade.
I see the grub screw / set screw you described.
Keep on keeping on!
~Richard

Thank Richard, I'll try moderate tapping on the front to see if that starts things. I did just remove the scales (seem to be ebony) to allow a better grip. Also took some dental floss to what gaps exist between blade and frame and MAN there's a lot of crap in there!!! Made the mistake of looking down into the screw hole with a lighted magnifier - yup, some serious "human glue" in there. Let you know later how the moderate tapping works. I think I now know why whomever let this go did so.

If you can get a hold of an old dental pick or something similar it might do a better job than the dental floss in the crevices.

Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AirColorado

Thank Richard, I'll try moderate tapping on the front to see if that starts things. I did just remove the scales (seem to be ebony) to allow a better grip. Also took some dental floss to what gaps exist between blade and frame and MAN there's a lot of crap in there!!! Made the mistake of looking down into the screw hole with a lighted magnifier - yup, some serious "human glue" in there. Let you know later how the moderate tapping works. I think I now know why whomever let this go did so.

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Yup, if someone put the blade in there, It is possible to get it out! You only know if you hit it too hard if it breaks!
~Richard
The blade has a v notch where the set screw enters and wedges it upward, each razor is a little bit different but all of this type have the notch and how much metal above it changes by the spine used,
http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...essme/leC5.jpg

Thanks Richard! I was picturing the geometry of the blade up under the frame as something entirely different. That photo clarifies it all much better - as in I can see how the blade should come out of the frame. I think I may grab a few of my other framebacks to see if those blades come out any easier, mainly so I can see exactly how they pop out as well.

Mike