Help with smoothing pin heads and centering the blade please

I cleaned this razor I got off eBay and made a handle from red MOP pattern kirinite. As you can see the blade is not centered when I close it. The edge doesn't come close to or hit the scale at all. Any suggestions on how to center it? This is the first razor handle I've made that I didn't use glue at all. The few other razor handles I've done I finished the pivot then used glue on the other end. This allowed me to make the blade centered easily. Then I could add a pin for appearance if I wanted. I don't see any need to do that unless I would use something decorative. Also How would I smooth the pin heads? I can feel where the pins are flattened. Were they too long when I peened them maybe? The flattened pin is almost as big as the washer. I'm pretty happy with them but I know they should be smoother. The scales are polished. I don't want to mess that up.

The handle is kirinite. It is very soft material and easily flexed. I think heating it in hot water, shaping it and letting it cool might work. Even if that would work is there a way to be more accurate with centering when assembling the razor? Any help is appreciated.

http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps02271435.jpg


http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/a...psdd69a578.jpg


Jack

Does not look too awful bad! It looks like the edge will not hit and the blade will guide it in? I often put the blade in a bind with a half-clothespin and pour 180 degree water over the scales and let it sit for a day or 2 in a bind. Seems to get that little bit I need.
I don't know about Kirnite, though. Should hurt nothing to try?
Light sanding and/or polishing the pins will smooth them out. As you gain experience pinning, you will learn to polish the pin with your hammer considerably by using tiny taps all over.

I use these tools to smooth & polish my pins,
Attachment 190790

Attachment 190791

I don't understand how or why it works but if you tap the hinge pin on on side it will move the blade, I can't find a the thread in the workshop but I think you tap the pin on the side you want the blade to move to. There is quite a bit on pinning in here
http://straightrazorpalace.com/works...wers-here.html

As Rezdog said for centering
and for polishing pins I just use a denim type cloth loaded with Autosol from when I polish steel.
I just fold it a couple of times then put it on a hard flat surface then polish my pins on it in circular motion and this usually polishes the rough edges of the peening

I doubt that heating the kirinite will make things better. Kirinit can deform when hot, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you'll magically deform it just the right amount for it to center perfectly :)
I generally have 2 solutions for this problem.
If you're still in the assembling stage, you can easily sand away a bit of material on the inside of the scales, around the pivot. You have to sand just a bit so that the washer takes on a slightly different angle , and that will move the point from left to right or right to left.
When everything is pinned, you can still fix a bit by tapping. If the blade needs to move, I tap the pin on the side that the point needs to move away from. And I tap it on the side of the tang, not the side of the tail. This will ever so slightly press that side of the outside washer inwards, changing the angle.

Was that explanation understandable?

I made a little sketch here showing the pin method. The idea is to tap the pins on one side to drive the blade the direction you want. If your pinning is not all that perfect then this may be your problem. You just tapped too much on 1 side. If you bend the pin then you will have to do it again. It will move back and forth when you open the blade all the way and then close it.

Attachment 190824

Both tap locations marked in blue are to get the blade moved in the direction indicated.
Tap the other sides to move the blade the other way.

Polish and smooth the pin, with a 4-6 in piece of chop stick with a dab of polish, diamond or rubbing compound on the edge of the stick and chucked into a drill press. Use slow speed and lite pressure.

Masking tape over the scale and cut around the pin and washer will protect the scale if you slip.

All great tips.
The only one not mentioned is, IS THE BLADE STRAIGHT?
It could be slightly warped to start off.
Lie it flat on one side note gap, flip it and note gap. Should be about the same.
Next step is pre-assembly using those tiny screws. :)
You can save yourself lots of headaches by mocking up the assembly FIRST!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bruno

I doubt that heating the kirinite will make things better. Kirinit can deform when hot, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you'll magically deform it just the right amount for it to center perfectly :)
I generally have 2 solutions for this problem.
If you're still in the assembling stage, you can easily sand away a bit of material on the inside of the scales, around the pivot. You have to sand just a bit so that the washer takes on a slightly different angle , and that will move the point from left to right or right to left.
When everything is pinned, you can still fix a bit by tapping. If the blade needs to move, I tap the pin on the side that the point needs to move away from. And I tap it on the side of the tang, not the side of the tail. This will ever so slightly press that side of the outside washer inwards, changing the angle.

Was that explanation understandable?

---

Very understandable. I also found a that was recommended here as well that agreed with your theory.
This is the quote.

Pin Adjustment

If you want to avoid unpinning your razor or you feel the alignment is only slightly off. Some issues can be corrected by doing a minor Pin Adjustment. This adjustment is simply holding the razor over a hard surface and using a tablespoon or peening hammer, striking the pivot pin in order to cause the scale (should say blade?) to adjustment away from the scale it is contacting (This method can also be used tighten up a loose scale).

You don't need to strike the pin very hard, you do not want to risk bending the pin or accidentally hitting/damaging the scales. A good test for how hard to hit the pin, is to hit it no harder then you would your finger... Seriously put you finger out on the anvil and tap the spot right at the cuticle and fingernail that real sensitive spot... If it hurts your finger you are tapping to hard...

I found this in "http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwiki/index.php/Blade_Centering".

I did this and it worked since it was only slightly off. Now the blade edge looks centered and when I close the razor all the way both sides of the spine area hit both scales at the same time. Thanks for the help.

Now to smoothing the pins. I like Hirlau's idea of drilling a hole in a piece of aluminum to place over the pin to protect the scales. For the supplies I need to run to the store and get a can of Coke. :)

Jack

As said, start at the beginning, look at the razor… before you take it apart to see how it fit in the old scales… then at the blade once you have it apart.

When the razor has the old scales on it, is a good time to experiment moving the blade from side to side or look for potential problems with the blade.

Mock-up will tell you a lot about how it will go together. Making the pin holes a bit larger will give you some wiggle room, use a hand held pin vise.

All good info above,many ways to polish pins but with carefull peening alone you can get close to a near perfect end result.
My method is to use use two layers of masking tape,than use micromesh to polish.
Attachment 190831

Thanks for the help guys. Here is how I did the pinning on this razor.

First I used a pair of vise grips to hold the pin to peen the first end. .

http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps018ec8f9.jpg

Then I slide the excess pin through a hole in my work table to peen the end. I grind the end flat before peening.

http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps4099d338.jpg

As you might imagine this marrs the pin. Next time I'll use something to protect the pin. That may or may not help.

http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps89d063f1.jpg

Then I put the pin through washer, scale, washer, tang, washer, scale. I clip the pin with dykes. Then I grind the clipped end flat. Then I put the other outside washer on the pin.

I use this hammer and vise to peen the other end.

http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/a...pse485ef7f.jpg

I understand about bent pins. Here is my first attempt. :)
http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/a...psbbf9a323.jpg

I'm in the process of setting up a new workshop. I have very limited access to my workbench, bench vise, etc. Right now I have to pick up and place my belt sander or drill press or whatever and work on this little table I built. This situation should improve in the next couple of weeks to a month. :)

Again, thanks for the help as well as for any other tips and info.

Jack

The tapping technique seems to work if the pinholes are slightly enlarged, say 5/64, before beginning. By tapping a pin one way and the other side the other, you need to be slightly sliding the collars over if it is to work. Also, wedge end alignment and bent pins down there have a direct effect on the pivot. Assembling with microfasteners and test-fitting will show the way. I am not immune to using 2 thin spacers on one side and one on the other to compensate for a wonky tang although some may call it cheating. Makers did it quite often. I have also found that replacing the spacers with smaller diameter spacers will nullify some of the effect of slightly different tang angles.
One test I always do is to pin the bottom, push a length of rod through both top holes, hold it out and see if the rod is level. If it is tilting in the scales, sawing on the pivot holes simultaneously, pushing up on one side and down on the other with a bit in a pin vise lines them up. Helps to get an even start. YMMV

The razor I just made this handle for had a huge hole in the tang. Possibly 1/8" in diameter. The pin is 1/16". I used a 5/64" bit. I have a set of wire gauge bits so I can get the holes a lot closer to any size I want if that might help.

I'd like to learn the ways to get the handle and blade to fit together. The easiest way to do that so far has been to put the pivot together and get it snug. I have then glued the other end of the handle having clamped it where the blade is dead center. If I didn't want to use glue, maybe I could have the handle end clamped and then drill the pin hole to the exact size of the pin.

Another thing I did wrong was I sanded and somewhat polished the side of the end wedge that would end up inside the handle BEFORE I sanded the side creating a slight angle. Now I can see that the inside of the wedge is not perpindicular with the handle. This is cosmetic and not a big deal for me on this handle. But it's something I'm now aware of and will correct next time. It does makes me wonder about how you guys make the wedges. I just eye-balled the angle. The angle did make the pivot end of the handle have a gap inside the scales about twice as wide as the tang and inside washers. When I pinned the handle end the wedge was much bigger (not shaped). I then shaped and polished the end. Both scales and the wedge were kirinite so abrasion was the same. In the videos I've watched the wedges have been shaped before assembly. I mention this because there are sometimes reasons why people do things and the reasons aren't mentioned. One question I have is why aren't screws and pins used instead of pins that require peening? Adjusting pivot tension would be easier with a screw (for anyone). Disassembly for cleaning/repair would be easier. I saw Lynn in a video making a point of wiping the razor after rinsing it when shaving. The goal was to keep water out of the pivot, especially on more valuable razors to prevent corrosion. I think that was the idea. If there were a screw at the pivot the razor could easily be disassembled, cleaned and re-assembled it seems. So what are the reasons pins and peening seem to be the norm? I'm more curious than anything. I will probably be the only one using the razors I work on. So it doesn't matter what I do. But there are probably reasons I'm unaware of. :shrug:

Jack

Pinning Vintage blades is traditional and should remain so IMO.In reality one should never get water in the pivot.

I've tried screws. So have several other customs makers and scale makers I know.
Like most if not all of them, I've gone back to pins and washers. That is just the best option.
And not just for the vintage look. A peened pin will stay put forever, unchanging.

I've found that although you could argue that using screws is easier you're forever tightening them to stop the blade flapping about. Peening looks better and is easier than you think, just be patient with that hammer.

Ok guys. The screws vs peening revolution has been put down. :) I would agree 100% about vintage razors. A well peened pin looks classier than a screw head. I'm proud of my last peening job. Much better than my first attempt. The immediate improvement is due to the help I've gotten on this forum. Thanks again and for the future I'm sure.

Jack

Going back to the OPs question on wedges - it's useful to explain why a wdge is considered necessary, as opposed to just a spacer.

If you take a look at traditional razor design, you see that the tang tapers towards the tail - therefore, peening at the pivot pin gets the scales tight but they then have to accommodate the tang at a wider point. This is where the wedge comes in - by designing the wedge so that the angle is about the same as the taper at the tang end, you will create a bow in the scales that should accommodate the blade at it's widest part without rubbing the scales.

Most restorers pin the wedge end before the pivot - it's always a good idea to test the whole set up with small screws beforehand.

Incidentally, a lot of custom makers do use screws instead of peened rod - they overcome the loosening problem by using products like Loctite Blue. The reason screws are not used so much on old blades is because the pivot hole needs to be re-drilled to accommodate the screw - this is not always easy on tempered steel - re-pinning is a much easier solution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

All good info above,many ways to polish pins but with carefull peening alone you can get close to a near perfect end result.
My method is to use use two layers of masking tape,than use micromesh to polish.
Attachment 190831

---

I use this very same method fool proof in my opinion and you get a super finish without touching the scales, also you may want to try just taping the blade firmly into the scales when closed then heating the entire scales up with your Wife or Girlfriends hairdryer then cool them quickly this can sometimes make a nice little correction and hopefully put the blade in the right place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UKRob

Going back to the OPs question on wedges - it's useful to explain why a wdge is considered necessary, as opposed to just a spacer.

If you take a look at traditional razor design, you see that the tang tapers towards the tail - therefore, peening at the pivot pin gets the scales tight but they then have to accommodate the tang at a wider point. This is where the wedge comes in - by designing the wedge so that the angle is about the same as the taper at the tang end, you will create a bow in the scales that should accommodate the blade at it's widest part without rubbing the scales.

Most restorers pin the wedge end before the pivot - it's always a good idea to test the whole set up with small screws beforehand.

Incidentally, a lot of custom makers do use screws instead of peened rod - they overcome the loosening problem by using products like Loctite Blue. The reason screws are not used so much on old blades is because the pivot hole needs to be re-drilled to accommodate the screw - this is not always easy on tempered steel - re-pinning is a much easier solution.

---

What type of screws are used and where do you get them? Do these screws cut threads in the holes or is it a screw/pin deal? That would be smaller than any I've seen. I tried lining everything up on this handle using the 1/16" pin rods. But since I used a 5/64" drill bit there was still some play. This play is eliminated after peening. Then there seems to be some adjustment possible by peening. I think I'll use my wire gauge bits next time. I can get the hole size much more accurate with them. OTOH, if I use kirinite again that stuff is soft enough to force the 1/16" pin through the 1/16" hole without reaming. But, if things aren't perfect that might make adjustment by peening harder or impossible.

Thanks for the explanation on why to use a wedge instead of a spacer with parallel sides. Explaining the "why" of things like this is good for newbies like me. Less trial and error for me. :)

Jack

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 10Pups

I made a little sketch here showing the pin method. The idea is to tap the pins on one side to drive the blade the direction you want. If your pinning is not all that perfect then this may be your problem. You just tapped too much on 1 side. If you bend the pin then you will have to do it again. It will move back and forth when you open the blade all the way and then close it.

Attachment 190824

Both tap locations marked in blue are to get the blade moved in the direction indicated.
Tap the other sides to move the blade the other way.

---

I used this picture and instruction on a razor I'm playing with for training and practice. The edge would hit the scale when I close the razor. So far I have been able to get the blade closing without the edge touching the scale. Even though that is not good enough for a finished razor (still needs work) there is progress and it indicates the theory is accurate. This razor may be one that the problem is caused by something peening can't fully correct. One issue caused by the peening fix is it's obvious I've peened a lot more on one side of the pin than the other. One question I have is do you change the direction of the hammer movement when hitting on one side? So far I've been hitting straight down counting on the curvature of the hammer head to peen the sides of the pin. But when trying to adjust for blade centering should I hit the pin at a hammer motion angle other than straight down? I hope I'm making sense.

Jack

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack0458

What type of screws are used and where do you get them? Do these screws cut threads in the holes or is it a screw/pin deal? That would be smaller than any I've seen. I tried lining everything up on this handle using the 1/16" pin rods. But since I used a 5/64" drill bit there was still some play. This play is eliminated after peening. Then there seems to be some adjustment possible by peening. I think I'll use my wire gauge bits next time. I can get the hole size much more accurate with them. OTOH, if I use kirinite again that stuff is soft enough to force the 1/16" pin through the 1/16" hole without reaming. But, if things aren't perfect that might make adjustment by peening harder or impossible.

Thanks for the explanation on why to use a wedge instead of a spacer with parallel sides. Explaining the "why" of things like this is good for newbies like me. Less trial and error for me. :)

Jack

---

They are micro bolts and nuts available from Microfasteners. There are details on the restoration sticky How, what where etc.

The idea is to peen in a circular motion moving the hammer 360degs around the pin to achieve a slight dome.
In your orig pics they seem to be to flat.

Here's a good video of Charlie Lewis (spozola) pinning one of his razors and smoothing the peen. Pretty informative. He has others if you search him on youtube. :)

Also gssixgun has some good pinning videos on youtube.

Howard :)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0mzIKuWkMaw

+1 I'm a vice grip user also