Setting new bevel.

I'm totally new to straight razors, but have been sharpening knives by hand for years. Straight razors seem to be a logical next stop, so I bought an old Spike straight razor that I cleaned up, and sent through a full progression of stones (500-2000-5000-10000, Imperia, stropping) to put a new edge on it. That included removing a small frown in the blade. I've shaved with it a few times now, but I'm suspecting that it should shave more cleanly that it is. I'm curious if during the process of grinding down the edge to fix the frown, if I may have thrown off the geometry between the edge and the spine, resulting in an edge that isn't as steep as it should be. Does this happen? Would one just grind down the spine a little bit to fix that? Does anybody even know what I'm talking about? Because I'm only 75% sure that I understand myself.

I wouldnt grind down the spine. Do the math and measure your blade. It might he off a little but you can shave with a higher angled bevel. There is a limit to where it gets noticeable but IMO it takes a bit more than what you did. Those spikes are normally a small angle to start with.

Id lean more to a bevel issue or you didnt remove enough stria from the bevel in you progression. Moved up the stones to quick. JMO.

The more experianced folks will jump in soon. Honing a razor is a different animal than sharpening knives! Takes time to learn.

BTW, Welcome to SRP!

Thanks for the input. Part of me wonders if I should just get a new razor, since I have no frame of reference for what it SHOULD feel like. I'm sure my wife will be on board with that idea.

You should totally get a 'shave ready' razor, or have one of your razors honed, from a respected user at some point in order to compare your edges to something. Two razors are a good thing and hardly excessive.:rofl2:

No one reputable would bring down the spine. Often with older razors that have a lot of spine wear, extra tape is used to build the spine up. One layer of tape, particularly for new honers will protect the geometry. The are a few resources to look at first is the bevel angle
http://www.coticule.be/wedges.html?f...alculation.xls
Then there is the question of is the bevel set. A lot of people use a loupe to aid in the decision as to when to move up and when the bevel is set.
https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...ggestions.html
I don’t start honing at 500, I go with 1000. I am not familiar with your brand of hones.

Good stuff. So let's assume that I agree, and I do, that I should get a shave ready razor, for comparison sake. What's a good source for something at a reasonable cost? I've already spent more than I want to think about on my knife hobby, and I'd really prefer that my wife doesn't kill me with one of them. :)

I would definitely get a 'shave ready' razor from a reputable source. My first two razors were from Lynn and it taught me what a smooth, keen edge feels like. Contact a mentor about what they recommend or something. Maybe check out the B/S/T section, usually good starter razors for around 40-50 dollars. I'd also like to mention that when first starting out, new people have a tenancy to do more harm than good on the strop. There really is more than just moving it up and down without nicking the strop.

-Laramie-

If you'd like, I'll hone it for free. All it'll cost ya, is shipping to my place. I'll take care of it going back.

Your call

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Originally Posted by Gregory27

Good stuff. So let's assume that I agree, and I do, that I should get a shave ready razor, for comparison sake. What's a good source for something at a reasonable cost? I've already spent more than I want to think about on my knife hobby, and I'd really prefer that my wife doesn't kill me with one of them. :)

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Try pm’ing Glen(gssixgun) he occasionally has some affordable user grade blades for sale, also is a pro honer. Another good place to look is in the bst part of the forum, usually some good deals to had on shave ready razors.

A second razor doesn't have to cost much. A vintage for ~$40 is 'just a normal deal'. You can easily fall into much better deals. Then get it honed by someone here.

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Originally Posted by outback

If you'd like, I'll hone it for free. All it'll cost ya, is shipping to my place. I'll take care of it going back.

Your call

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Super generous, this place is beginning to sound like the knife forum I frequent. However, I think I'd rather keep this one as a razor to work on personally, and just get a second, shave ready one. Thank you again though.

BST is a great way to get a second razor at a decent price. You can also find some very nice, more costly ones there too. Id take outback up on his offer. Send him your razor and buy another off our forum that is shave ready. Then within a week or two you will have something really shave ready by outback and possible a second one too.

When your learning having two is best. One to send off or to practice honing on and one ready.
Id recommend you start with learning the shave first. Learn to hone later. Its important to learn on a proper edge. Not something that might be close to right.

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Originally Posted by Gregory27

Super generous, this place is beginning to sound like the knife forum I frequent. However, I think I'd rather keep this one as a razor to work on personally, and just get a second, shave ready one. Thank you again though.

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To each their own...

But should you come across something you like, that needs attention, the offer is there, for ya.

Buttery smooth shaves await, all ya gotta do is stick your neck out, a bit. :deal:

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Originally Posted by yondermountain91

I would definitely get a 'shave ready' razor from a reputable source. My first two razors were from Lynn and it taught me what a smooth, keen edge feels like. Contact a mentor about what they recommend or something. Maybe check out the B/S/T section, usually good starter razors for around 40-50 dollars. I'd also like to mention that when first starting out, new people have a tenancy to do more harm than good on the strop. There really is more than just moving it up and down without nicking the strop.

-Laramie-

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I'm using a 3x11 mounted bovine strop (more appropriate for my knives,) is that still fine for a straight razor?

That will work fine as long as it’s clean, no pastes or left over burrs from stropping knives.

Not sure what kind of technique you use for knives but with razors raising a burr is not something you want to do, it promotes a micro serrated edge and for razors is generally a waste of steel. The edge on the razor should be a reflection of the stone you hones it on, ie 10k stone you want only 10k scratches on the bevels forming the edge, the name of the game is smooth. Use a light touch and make sure you complete the job on each hone in your progression before you move up. I’m fairly proficient when it comes to honing knives but the knowledge did little for me when I came to learning how to hone a razor.

Everything rides on setting a " PERFECT " bevel. If this is not achieved, the rest of the process is just a waste of time. Learning to torque the edge of the blade, while keeping the spine on the hone and not putting downward force on it, is the key to honing razors.

You'll be surprised at how long it takes, to get a proper bevel set, and joined. Some ya gotta put down n walk away, come back another day. Its that, or send it into the wall.... I'm not kiddin!!!. Really, we don't want to do that, but some razors are tough.

Knives are like a sharp stick, good enough to put an eye out. Razors...were talkin surgical. :nj

If you can get to a meet, that is the perfect spot for learning to hone, there is often good deals on razors too.

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Originally Posted by outback

Everything rides on setting a " PERFECT " bevel. If this is not achieved, the rest of the process is just a waste of time. Learning to torque the edge of the blade, while keeping the spine on the hone and not putting downward force on it, is the key to honing razors.

You'll be surprised at how long it takes, to get a proper bevel set, and joined. Some ya gotta put down n walk away, come back another day. Its that, or send it into the wall.... I'm not kiddin!!!. Really, we don't want to do that, but some razors are tough.

Knives are like a sharp stick, good enough to put an eye out. Razors...were talkin surgical. :nj

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I, and my knives, take mild offense to the sharp stick comment. I'll have to play around a little bit with the technique on the stones I think. That slight torquing sounds vaguely similar to hitting either the shinogi line or the edge on a single bevel Japanese knife.

Similar for sure, same thing as the spine to edge setting the geometry, use electrical tape on the spine until you get a feel for using the the spine as a fulcrum, it will teach you proper pressure without unnecessarily wearing out the spine from too much down pressure. After setting the bevel with some torque applied run the edge on the side of your hone really lightly or drag it through a cork, felt, or a piece of wood to make sure you removed any possible burr then go back to the bevel setting hone (I use a 1k) and give it a few light strokes to bring the edge back. Learning to get a good bevel set is the hardest part of the whole thing, same as with a knife. The foundation of your house so to speak.

I too have honed knives since I was very young, somewhere around the age of 6 or 7. And found honing razors to be a bit more technical than knives.

I freehand hone, with the use of no holding jigs for angles. Its all done by repeating muscle memory, which to me is more difficult than razors. Also why most knives have a convexing bevel. So I give u kudo's on the knife honing, their not as easy as some make out, either

Some razors are done with a double bevel, hence...micro bevel.

Your gonna have a blast with razors, they'll really up your game on knife edges, too.

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Originally Posted by jfk742

Similar for sure, same thing as the spine to edge setting the geometry, use electrical tape on the spine until you get a feel for using the the spine as a fulcrum, it will teach you proper pressure without unnecessarily wearing out the spine from too much down pressure. After setting the bevel with some torque applied run the edge on the side of your hone really lightly or drag it through a cork, felt, or a piece of wood to make sure you removed any possible burr then go back to the bevel setting hone (I use a 1k) and give it a few light strokes to bring the edge back. Learning to get a good bevel set is the hardest part of the whole thing, same as with a knife. The foundation of your house so to speak.

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This was incredibly helpful. Back to the stones!

On that subject, what do most people prefer in their hones? Thanks to my other hobby, I have a fairly stupid amount of options. What seems to work best? Harder stones? Softer stones? Natural stones? So many options.

For synthetics, Naniwas are very popular.

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Originally Posted by outback

I too have honed knives since I was very young, somewhere around the age of 6 or 7. And found honing razors to be a bit more technical than knives.

I freehand hone, with the use of no holding jigs for angles. Its all done by repeating muscle memory, which to me is more difficult than razors. Also why most knives have a convexing bevel. So I give u kudo's on the knife honing, their not as easy as some make out, either

Some razors are done with a double bevel, hence...micro bevel.

Your gonna have a blast with razors, they'll really up your game on knife edges, too.

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Jigs never held much appeal to me. I like the relationship between me, the knife, and the stone. Jigs just seem like they'd muddy up the waters.

As a backgrounder, I hardly have any experience sharpening knives so everything I learned in honing straight razors was from scratch. It would have been nice to have some one on one with an experienced razor honer to cut down on the learning curve but that was not possible. I'd say if you have that opportunity you should go for it.

I learned to hone on Naniwa synthetic hones as they are very consistent in grit as opposed to naturals which I am told are variable in that respect. So far that has worked for me over some years and only recently did I add another hone to the progression. That was also a synthetic hone, a Shapton 16000 glass hone.

To counter any burr I might have raised, I will do a couple of spine leading strokes on a hone followed by a few more edge leading strokes to finish on that hone.

Bob

First, post clear pics of your razor for better advice.

Drop the Imperia stone from the progression, any natural stone introduces a number of variables into the learning process and is doubtful it is finer that 8-10k anyway. That a vendor grit rates a natural stone is questionable and makes the stone itself questionable.

Do tape the spine, and as said most probably the bevel is not fully set, a very common issue especially when edge correction work is done with a very low grit stone.

Generally, with vintage razors, if there is a spine issue it is that the spine is too thin, not thick, as said.

I would use a dedicated strop for razors only, strop contamination is an issue. I even use dedicated hones for razors, but stones can be lapped and cleaned to be used for both. It can be difficult if not impossible to clean a strop that has been used to strop knives and or tools.

Many of us come to razors from sharpening knives, where folks have difficulty is letting go of knife sharpening process and learn a new technique with new tools. Yes, they are similarities, but very different. Sharp is easy, smooth and comfortable is a whole other issue. Where most knives are finished is the starting process for razors.

As once said, it’s like a cowboy jumping on a motorcycle saying, “this can’t be too tough, saying “Giddy up”, spurring the oil tank and dumfounded when nothing happens.

Its not that tough, just different.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

First, post clear pics of your razor for better advice.

Drop the Imperia stone from the progression, any natural stone introduces a number of variables into the learning process and is doubtful it is finer that 8-10k anyway. That a vendor grit rates a natural stone is questionable and makes the stone itself questionable.

Do tape the spine, and as said most probably the bevel is not fully set, a very common issue especially when edge correction work is done with a very low grit stone.

Generally, with vintage razors, if there is a spine issue it is that the spine is too thin, not thick, as said.

I would use a dedicated strop for razors only, strop contamination is an issue. I even use dedicated hones for razors, but stones can be lapped and cleaned to be used for both. It can be difficult if not impossible to clean a strop that has been used to strop knives and or tools.

Many of us come to razors from sharpening knives, where folks have difficulty is letting go of knife sharpening process and learn a new technique with new tools. Yes, they are similarities, but very different. Sharp is easy, smooth and comfortable is a whole other issue. Where most knives are finished is the starting process for razors.

As once said, it’s like a cowboy jumping on a motorcycle saying, “this can’t be too tough, saying “Giddy up”, spurring the oil tank and dumfounded when nothing happens.

Its not that tough, just different.

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Yeah, a dedicated strop is an option, but if I get another stone, there's no way I'm not going to run some knives on it. I got the Imperia based off of a Dr. Matt recommendation, and if I need to drop it, I can live with that, as I love it for knives already. What would be a good replacement? How high of grit is necessary?

Just drop it for now. Perfect the 10k to get the hang of honing and finishing a razor, then once you got it down, test the Imperia and see if it improves a 10k edge.

A 10k edge stropped on Chrome Oxide should be a very keen, comfortable edge. You can paste a piece of cardboard, inside of a cereal box with good pure Chrome Oxide, or make a dedicated Chrome Ox strop with a piece of nylon or cotton strapping from a fabric store.

You can go for more, that it the 2% that we all chase.

Nessesary is also an option. Some say 8k is a finisher and others say its a pre-finisher. With synthetic stone i finish on 20k. That is nessesary for me. But id say 12k is where most would feel is the finest needed for razors.

As Marty said, its a different way of honing. A razor has a smooth edge. A knife has a toothy edge. I use a microscope to check my edge at 100x. And the edge looks like a straight line. That is where the smooth come in.

How does everyone feel about 1 micron diamond compound on balsa for finishing? That's an option too. I've got too many options.

Little coarse IMHO, if an edge needs that much work I would just go back to a stone. In the rare event that I do use paste it's usually .25 diamond on felt. However there are people who strop on even finer pastes. I would focus on just plain leather stropping for the meantime. Stropping on abrasives will only exacerbate any faults in your technique, just my 2 cents.

-Laramie-

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Originally Posted by yondermountain91

Little coarse IMHO, if an edge needs that much work I would just go back to a stone. In the rare event that I do use paste it's usually .25 diamond on felt. However there are people who strop on even finer pastes. I would focus on just plain leather stropping for the meantime. Stropping on abrasives will only exacerbate any faults in your technique, just my 2 cents.

-Laramie-

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I'd still be using leather as a strop. This would more act as a final hone. The 10k stone that I have is suspect, frankly. I mean, I have nothing against getting another stone... honestly, I'll jump at any excuse to get another stone. This MAY be a problem of mine.

You’ve come to the wrong place, no one here has a hone acquisition disorder.... well, maybe Toroblanco.....

I would still go finer. However this is just my opinion. Idc if you set your bevel on the curb, as long as you shave with a straight you’re alright with me. Take Outback up on his offer, you won’t regret it. It will make you rethink what you know about ‘sharp’.

-Laramie-

Diamonds are aggressive and results will vary depending on type, size and most importantly the substrate. If you have some 1um diamond, try it. Worst that could happen, you have to, do 10-15 more finish laps on the 10k to reset the edge if it is harsh.

1um is about 16k, .50um is 20-30k grit, as is Chrome Oxide. Chrome Oxide will generally give a smoother finish than Diamonds. A stick of quality pure Chrome Oxide is $10-15 for a lifetime supply.

What is the issue with the 10K?

new razor wont mean its truly shave ready either, the new razors come so, so, buy a used one from our Buy Sell Trade section from a member whos been here awhile with posts counts up there and whos got alot of people who will vouch for the edges. or buy new and send out

As TC said...
Buy new and send it out for honing. It will most likely need it. Its just the way it is.

To be clear, I am not a pro honer. I would describe my skills as adequate for my face.

Your sharpening background sounds similar to mine, so I thought I'd share a bit of my journey. I got my first straight in the late 80's and got about a 1/2 dozen shaves off the factory edge. Edge got a bit harsh so, no problem, I'll just sharpen it up. Never did get the edge back. Fast forward a lot of years and I got back into straits. Found a local knife store that said they honed razors (it was only $4) had my original Dovo done as a benchmark and practiced on a couple of other razors I had picked up. The Dovo shaved kinda like I remembered, but it had been a while. Going off some spotty youtube videos and my previous knowledge, I was able to get shaves similar to the Dovo. Then I found SRP and started thinking the local honer might not have had the most skill (spine had clearly been on the stone and when I asked him if he had stropped it I got a hesitant reply of "yea, I did some stropping"). What I have learned so far is straights are way different to sharpen than knives. It's a whole different level of precision and care.

I came across this thread a few weeks ago (https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...on-2012-a.html) and read through it. I warn you, it's a long one. There's a ton of tips and helpful info there if you can wade through it. That thread got me to really focus on the bevel set, make sure I'd removed all the previous grits scratches (a 10X magnifier is really helpful), and be more exacting and patient. I worked with two blades and was rewarded with my best shaves to date.

I still feel like I can get better and will at some point send a blade to an SRP recommended honer, but that will be after I decide which blade grind/size/tip I want to have as my new benchmark. The folks at SRP really know their stuff and are super helpful.

Good luck on your journey.