Lines in Black Horn

Hi folks,

So, I salvaged a set of very old black horn scales from a junker and went about touching them up to use on some unknown future project. This is my first experience with horn but I felt pretty confident reading through the various discussions of it on here. I didn't think about before pictures, but obviously wish I had now. When I got them, one had almost a twist in it with the edges curled up, both bowed heavily in one direction, and they both had bites out of them.

I began by boiling and pressing them to get them as flat as possible and then soaked them in neatsfoot oil for well over a week. Then I took it handsanding. I made them more narrow to sand out the bites and then thinned them out on both outside and inside to remove any curl that was left; the scales were quite thick to begin with so I had lots of material to work with as I sanded down.

I've now handsanded them to 3000 and re-pinned the one end with the original bone wedge (ignore the old broken tang I use for mock-ups). The problem I'm having is that there are little white lines throughout the scales, both on the edges and at several points on the sides. These were apparent when I first began but I assumed they were just scratches that would sand out -- they are definitely not scratches. Is this normal? Anything to be concerned with? Or, just leave them as they are as part of the deal with using natural (and very old!) materials. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers, folks!

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Are you wet sanding? Try using water while you sand. I shape with scrapers mostly but when I start sanding I go with 220 and water. I have a piece of plate glass I throw over the center divider in our sink and set the faucet to a drip, almost a trickle. It doesn’t take much you just need to keep everything wet while you sand. Check constantly, you can really remove a lot of material in a short period of time when wet sanding. To check progress wipe the scale with an absorbent cloth and look at it while holding under some light. It should be evident if you need to sand anymore with a given grit.

I have done both dry sanding and wet sanding and it doesn't appear to make a difference. I've probably remove 0.5mm (1/50 of an inch) off that side and it hasn't altered those markings in the least. They feel as smooth as the rest of the horn and feel almost glassy right now.

How does the area look under a loupe? Can you see the spot if you look at it from a low angle? May help you to see if the defect is at the surface or just what that particular piece of horn just looks like. Outback will probably be by soon, he has dealt with a ton of horn and has probably come across your particular situation. Every time I have had something that looks like your issue it’s been because of something I did.

So the long deceased bovine who donated it's horns to make scales with had came with streaks in it. So what :thinking:

If you want all black, then put those scales in some black hair dye or some black leather dye.

You might need to give them a quick soak in something to remove the Neatsfoot oil, but I'd try just giving them a soak .

Just my thoughts---Have fun! :tu

I have to agree. My firs guess is scratches from lower grits, they can have that effect, so can streaks from when the horn was grown, some light delamination can also give that effect, looking with a loupe can help reveal which you are looking at. You can fill delamination with CA. Have you buffed them at all? The open grain on old horn can grab dust and seem to suck it in. Sometimes it gets better or worse with buffing.

The horn grows in a cylinder those are growth lines the horn was cut and flattened, after an age the lines stand out more

You can soak the horn in neatsfoot for a week or two and they will lessen, most all the horn scales are dyed black

If you clean and sand them the other colors will become apparent

Hope that helps a bit

I looked with a loupe and I'm more and more convinced that it's simply striation lines. If you look at the bottom photo in my opening post you can see those same markings running along the edge of the scales too. If that's the way it is then I think there is really nothing to be done and so, instead of dying it black I think best to embrace the idiosyncrasies of the horn and try to do them honor.

Thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge and experience here.

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Originally Posted by ppetresen

I looked with a loupe and I'm more and more convinced that it's simply striation lines. If you look at the bottom photo in my opening post you can see those same markings running along the edge of the scales too. If that's the way it is then I think there is really nothing to be done and so, instead of dying it black I think best to embrace the idiosyncrasies of the horn and try to do them honor.

Thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge and experience here.

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Now you are thinking! :y

I could be wrong but it might be from boiling... Try a heat lamp
Cheers
Joseph

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Originally Posted by JOB15

I could be wrong but it might be from boiling... Try a heat lamp
Cheers
Joseph

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A good thought, but those were there before I boiled and flattened them. Ridges had risen up on the scles, I think for being so old and dried out. A lot of them went down a bit after the soak in neatsfoot oil and then I sanded what was left flat and smooth. The scales were very hard and difficult to sand, but after the oil soak it behaved more like I would have expected it to.

I have been warned by people with knowledge against boiling horn or even letting it soak to long.
It messes with the fibers..
I'll have more knowledge on this as I continue my own experiments :)

Use MAAS or similar buffing compound to finish. It will greatly reduce the appearance of the lines.

An old clothes iron is your best friend for flattening old, dry, twisted and curling horn.

I always sand, fill bug bites, and dye, before any soaking in oil. If I'm going to use dye, CA repairs are done last, as CA won't accept dye.

I think what you have, is a bit of delamination in the rings. Sometimes they won't come out with sanding, their just that deep. They are what they are, old.!

BTW....they look great.! For being 100+ years old.

FYI....I never sand past 600 grt., and always finish with 000 or 0000, steel wool. I steel wool them again, after they come out of oil. Then decide weather to leave them a matte finish, or polish to a high shine. Which can be done by hand, if u have no buffer.

For large bug bites, or missing pieces, I've found that mixing burnt wooden matches ground to a powder, or wood dust with a structural epoxy, makes great seamless repairs, that will except dye. Then it can be coated with CA, then sanded and polished to match the rest of the scale.

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Honey horn has to be attacked in another manner, to black horn. Repairs do best from the inside of the scales, by grinding out the delamination, and leaving the outer layer ( fingernail thickness ) then filling with the T-88. Over time, the T-88 will yellow, and blend into the existing horn.

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Epoxies won't polish, so I use a thin coat of CA to create a shine. Like the clear coat that protects the paint on your vehicles.

The white pattern in black horn is normal and can look attractive, I often buy horn with this pattern. When buffed it is unique.

You may have to wait a couple days for the oil to stabilize or wipe with alcohol before sanding.

A wedge will keep the horn in tension and prevent them from twisting or bowing.

Sand with 600 and remove all the deep scratches, then 1000 grit. From 1k they should polish to a high luster with any good metal polish by hand or Green Stainless Steel compound and a buffer.

KarleJ has a good tutorial on making horn scales. If you don’t like the white streaks you can dye with hair dye, shoe or leather dye or a black sharpie.

Horn is inexpensive and easy to work with hand tools.

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A ladies nail buffing file works wonders too, as horn and nails are both made up of keratin they are the same structural material.

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Really awesome tips here, thanks everyone. I'll have to go pick up some steel wool this weekend. the experimentation and learning piece is one of the bst parts of this hobby.

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

A ladies nail buffing file works wonders too, as horn and nails are both made up of keratin they are the same structural material.

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Sally's, a woman's supply shop has tons of buffing and sanding sticks. I use them a lot.

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Originally Posted by outback

An old clothes iron is your best friend for flattening old, dry, twisted and curling horn.

I always sand, fill bug bites, and dye, before any soaking in oil. If I'm going to use dye, CA repairs are done last, as CA won't accept dye.

I think what you have, is a bit of delamination in the rings. Sometimes they won't come out with sanding, their just that deep. They are what they are, old.!

BTW....they look great.! For being 100+ years old.

FYI....I never sand past 600 grt., and always finish with 000 or 0000, steel wool. I steel wool them again, after they come out of oil. Then decide weather to leave them a matte finish, or polish to a high shine. Which can be done by hand, if u have no buffer.

For large bug bites, or missing pieces, I've found that mixing burnt wooden matches ground to a powder, or wood dust with a structural epoxy, makes great seamless repairs, that will except dye. Then it can be coated with CA, then sanded and polished to match the rest of the scale.


Honey horn has to be attacked in another manner, to black horn. Repairs do best from the inside of the scales, by grinding out the delamination, and leaving the outer layer ( fingernail thickness ) then filling with the T-88. Over time, the T-88 will yellow, and blend into the existing horn.

Epoxies won't polish, so I use a thin coat of CA to create a shine. Like the clear coat that protects the paint on your vehicles.

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Outback, that is some amazing work, and I am SO stupidly happy to see the work I tell others can be done, actually accomplished.
Thank you so much for both sharing, and doing, and Posting!

Thank you, kind sir. I've seen a lot of restored blades, but very little threads or posts of restored scales. I took what little info I could find on horn restoration, then applied a bit of auto body restoring, and the two years I spent in school, learning about industrial plastics, to obtain my results.

I've seen posts on graphing other pieces of scales, to broken scales, then applying a backer/ liner, but I wanted a seamless repair, and be able to keep each razor as close to original as possible.

I've even had some success in fixing a set of cellulose scales, that had a scale busted in half. Most won't take, but I had to try, being the blade was NOS.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

The horn grows in a cylinder those are growth lines the horn was cut and flattened, after an age the lines stand out more

You can soak the horn in neatsfoot for a week or two and they will lessen, most all the horn scales are dyed black

If you clean and sand them the other colors will become apparent

Hope that helps a bit

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As usual, Glen hit the nail on the head. Also, in general, the horn will be lighter coloured the younger it is, i.e. nearer the centre of the horn.

Really interesting and great photo. Do you happen to know when they go about cutting the horn, is it bisected right down the middle and then flattened, or something like cut the the centre and then flattened out in one piece (the way one does with birch bark, for instance)?

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Originally Posted by ppetresen

Really interesting and great photo. Do you happen to know when they go about cutting the horn, is it bisected right down the middle and then flattened, or something like cut the the centre and then flattened out in one piece (the way one does with birch bark, for instance)?

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I think it "depends". The horn is thinner & hollow near the boss, maybe useful for some applications like making a horn bow.
I don't know how it would be processed for razor scales but you can be sure that back in the day they would've wasted little.