New Blade Production- Unrealistic?

Has anyone in the forum considered having a steel fabricator make a production run of blades to their specification? I haven't been here long but I have seen a couple of attempts to sell new production straights to members. The last post I recall was from someone who ordered their blades from an unnamed Solingen manufacturer (everyone guessed Dovo, which was probably right), fitted some scales to them and etched their name. Kamakazi? Kumatsu? Something Asian or other (I remember a dragon). I recall the reseller wanting to charge some rediculous price for an unproven blade and the blade not doing to well in terms of sharpening and quality control (three were provided to honemeisters here and all three found the blade unsatisfactory for the price point).

If anyone has or has considered such a venture I'd like to hear about it. I'm curious what problems one might run into. I can appreciate fine hand craftsmanship but I'm wondering why there isn't a reliable American presence in the market. I'm wondering if the costs are just too high to justify new production and what other factors are holding such a project back. I think this forum definitely has members with the know how and I think there are some outstanding machinists in this country who could match to specifications. I'm just trying to figure out the gap between know-how and product.

chris:

If I had to hazard a guess (and that's all it is) I'd guess that it's more an economic issue than a technical one. Razors are very labor intensive things to produce (to produce WELL, zeepks are cheap) and even assuming you had minimal R&D costs (exact alloy to use, exact heat treat process to use, establish grinding methodology, etc, etc) because you already had a good idea, you already had all the tools you needed (not likely unless you own a machine shop), you still have a pretty high continuing cost of production.

Couple that with the pickiness of the non-entry level straight razor market (read: us) and you are going to have a rough time efficiently producing a razor that is both cheap enough and good enough. You've got shops that get around this by making lots of razors that are merely pretty good, and relatively reasonably priced. Dovo is a good example of this; they overcome the startup costs with volume. You've also got shops like Zowada down in the hill country that make awesome razors (high cost of production due to high amount of expert labor needed) that cost nearly 4 figures.

I'm guessing that any potential commercial (non-hobbyist) razor producer has thought of this and realizes that all the niches (in what is basically a niche market to begin with) are filled; thus, no more available profit may be wrung from the market.

I mean, it's all well and good to talk about even a group buy, but with a production run that small you'd have to be making razors the Zowada way and not the Dovo way to break even. And it's a bit of a stretch to think that a freshman entry into the market will be able to compete favorably with Zowada or Wacker at the same price point.

Anyone agree/disagree? I think there are most likely a lot of people that COULD be making razors right here in the good old US of A, but they just don't see the profit in it. (warning: pun) Their margins would have to be razor thin.

If the cartridge manufactures continue to increase prices, we will see an increase in traditional shaving. But as stated, it's a niche market. Those in the cottage industry side of the equation would just as soon see it stay that way. I suspect we will see DEs make a dramatic show in the near future.

I dont know about completely unrealistic. I guess it would all be down to the product they were producing. A full hollow ground razor for example would be especially difficult to produce without specialist tooling and a lot of time. Traditional wedge blades however would be much more viable and easy to make, i would have thought that any hobbyist knifemaker who works their own blades would be able to make a wedge blade fairly easily as the grinding aspect is pretty simple.

you still have to deal with proper tempering, knowing how to anneal the steel, and maintaining your quality control.
It would only take a few bad blades to ruin your reputation, and end your sales.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chrisgiraffe

I'm wondering why there isn't a reliable American presence in the market.

---

There is little need for razors with cupholders :D :roflmao

Ok mainly it is about economics. There aren't too much people in the world buying high end razors. So small volume kills any factory plans.
The no-frills market is taken by dovo, and the quality market is captured by TI, and now boker again.

And these factories are already up and running, in a steady state and have taken care of initial investment losses, simply by keeping alive while competitors went bankrupt.

Building a new factory, getting expertise in all steps is extremely expensive, and really hit and miss.

This means there are only 2 opportunities:
- small time hobbyists who turn out to be great bladesmiths, like tim Zowada, Robert Williams and mastro livi, and people like Joe Chandler and Bill Ellis, who are not smiths per se, but still equally good.
- existing knife makers who want to get into the market, and make enough money to carry the cost and risk of the initial investment. I'm pretty sure that spyderco could achieve this. As an added bonus, companies like spyderco already have a certain amount of fame when it comes to knives, helping them gain foothold

There is another possibility...

I have not checked pricing on this, but going to a fabrication/machining shop where you can pick the steel and the grinding profiles for your order.

I am not sure what the minimum would be, but it should be possible to have the blades cut to shape and ground with only honing still to go along with adding scales.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JGS

I am not sure what the minimum would be, but it should be possible to have the blades cut to shape and ground with only honing still to go along with adding scales.

---

That would be possible, but it would also be worthless. Unless the blades are properly heat treated and tempered, they will never take an edge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JGS

There is another possibility...

I have not checked pricing on this, but going to a fabrication/machining shop where you can pick the steel and the grinding profiles for your order.

I am not sure what the minimum would be, but it should be possible to have the blades cut to shape and ground with only honing still to go along with adding scales.

---

Ah, see, that is where I was going with this. I've been shopping around machine shops to do work on another project (new woodworking tool) and thought, 'perhaps these guys could actually produce blades'. They are pretty efficient in terms of shaping but I hadn't considered heat treating and tempering. Still, I think that would be the best (if only possible way) for the lone penniless hopeful (i.e. me! :) ) to attempt something like this- if it's even possible at all.

Of course there really are more sides to this than just making great blades (an obvious necessity). The other side is convincing America that straights are the way to go. That kind of convincing isn't impossible but it takes work, time, creativity and money. I mean, think about it, if America can be convinced to buy and throw away their razor at any cost every week, why can't they be convinced they should be using a straight?

Somehow I imagine the board members of Gillette and Wilkinson wincing at the thought.

Perhaps the new market isn't in America at all. Perhaps the new straight razor market is in Japan, South Korea or China.

Pardon my musings.

Obviously non-tempered blades would not be very good shavers...appreciate that insight.

I am aware of a shop that does the whole thing with the metal. They heat-treat and grind on a liquid cooled computer operated grinder to protect the temper.

Cost would likely make this a problem without a large order.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jockeys

That would be possible, but it would also be worthless. Unless the blades are properly heat treated and tempered, they will never take an edge.

---

True. However, I'm pretty sure that I've seen Bill Ellis say that he sends his blades off to be heat treated after getting them ready. So apparently there is a service for doing this.
Of course, now you're outsourcing the grinding, and the heat treating, leaving you nothing but the honing and scales to make money on....And perhaps the custom file work between grinding and treating.

Convincing Americans to return to straights en masse? Surely you jest. If you want a laugh go to a web site devoted to cartridge razor shavers (there must be one, there's a site for everything) and try and convince them. If your lucky they will just laugh you off the ste and the opinions are apt to be alot stronger. It would be like someone who's anti gun going on a site devoted to gun enthusiasts to explain their position if you get the picture.

Actually about 4 years ago there was to be an American company producing straight razors. It was to be called the American Straight Razor Company and Classic Shaving was to be its sales point. Apparently, at some point they realized the economics were not in their favor and the whole thing fell through. Lynn may have a little more info about that venture and what happened.

I love this dialogue. I feel like I'm getting a wider perspective.

To the bigspendur, I agree there is palpable opposition but I have this 'feeling' that the time is comming for the straight razor. Not for all of it's classical attributes, but more so due to economics. They are simply more efficient than cartridge razors over the long haul. Wait, wait- preaching to the choir, sorry.

Anyway, I think the idea of straights being 'luxury items' is the first step toward their return. I think the time is comming where their popularity will be widespread- but then again I thought Communism was bound to fail when I was 13, in 1984. I said the same thing in basic training to my instructors and they thought I was crazy. Who's laughing now!!!!!

Sorry.

Anyway, I see this as a big waiting to be explored- but of course there's just so much risk at the time being. Trying to revive the dead can get costly.

Yea and people will get rid of their cars and get horses and we will all move into caves to live and women will throw away their automatic washers and dishwashers and go boil water and beat the clothes clean and use ash for soap. Modern day people are never going to go back to all that is required to shave with a straight even on the most basic level. It goes against everything "modern". People will not take the time to learn and maintain. Thats the way I see it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Yea and people will get rid of their cars and get horses and we will all move into caves to live and women will throw away their automatic washers and dishwashers and go boil water and beat the clothes clean and use ash for soap. Modern day people are never going to go back to all that is required to shave with a straight even on the most basic level. It goes against everything "modern". People will not take the time to learn and maintain. Thats the way I see it.

---

It sucks, but I think you are prolly correct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Yea and people will get rid of their cars and get horses and we will all move into caves to live and women will throw away their automatic washers and dishwashers and go boil water and beat the clothes clean and use ash for soap. Modern day people are never going to go back to all that is required to shave with a straight even on the most basic level. It goes against everything "modern". People will not take the time to learn and maintain. Thats the way I see it.

---

We did. and with little instruction at that!

Yeah we did, but at the same time, we still go on using dishwashers, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, electric ovens, microwave ovens, coffee machines, ...

Though I admit I use an antique manual grinder to grind my coffee beans.
To be honest, we still use preground beans regularly because grinding coffee manually is a bit tedious.

The only way you're gonna be able to get a production run going is to eliminate nearly all the hand steps. I don't know if sintered CPM techniques could produce an acceptable blade, but it's quite possible - I think some of the artisans are using CPM steel, so you'd just need to front the cost for the mould. But this could get you blanks coming out with no grinding needed, just polish to a matte finish, harden and temper (which is cheap IIRC - something like $5/blade in double-digit quantities), then hone on a couple of continuous belts with pastes. A CNC machine could cut one-piece scales from laminate, and simple takedown pivot like feather uses to put everything together with a minimum of labor and skill. You'd wind up with a workmanlike razor, and the biggest expense is probably the initial mould, but there might be a market for such a razor. But how big of a market? 200 pieces? Remember that you're competing with ebay, and every bit of labor you add makes you less competive with the 'bay. So if you want gold trim or a mirror polish that's gonna cost extra, though jimps, worked backs, and even engraving can probably be incorporated into the initial mould.

IMO the sticking points for expanding the market isn't just the expense of razors, it's also the fear of putting a bare blade to your face, and the significant challenges of the honing and stropping. I think youtube helps with the fear issue, and it would be nice if there were an inexpensive and good razor that could push pakistani simco crap out of the mall knife shops. But until a guy can take his new razor home and just use it every day with his canned goop and with little more care than his M3 the straight razor market will remain miniscule compared to the DE market, much less the general shaving market. Expanding the market this way doesn't do anything directly for the traditional makers, or for the brush and soap guys, but they will get plenty of business from christmas and birthdays.

Thats one interesting hurdle to overcome. Also the one that attracted us to straights in the first place. Their own longevity. Its hard to make a living by making a product that lasts a hundred years or more by design, there are few repeat orders. Customer loyalty doesn't matter because if they like your product they won't buy one again and if they don't like it.... You are also competing with every razor made for the last hundred years or so, the used market brings down the price of the new market. After a few years you are even trying to compete in the marketplace against a used market already full of your own product.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bruno

Yeah we did, but at the same time, we still go on using dishwashers, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, electric ovens, microwave ovens, coffee machines, ...

Though I admit I use an antique manual grinder to grind my coffee beans.
To be honest, we still use preground beans regularly because grinding coffee manually is a bit tedious.

---

I use my teeth.. more control over how course the grind is that way. :D

I think it would be great to have a made in USA razor Hell, looking at many of the ones that have passed through my hands, there used to be lots, but those economic realities... wow.

So don't go all out at first, start with the niche market, eh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mparker762

...so you'd just need to front the cost for the mould. But this could get you blanks coming out with no grinding needed, just polish to a matte finish, harden and temper (which is cheap IIRC - something like $5/blade in double-digit quantities), then hone on a couple of continuous belts with pastes....

...So if you want gold trim or a mirror polish that's gonna cost extra, though jimps, worked backs, and even engraving can probably be incorporated into the initial mould....

---

This situation isn't really feasible, heat treating a blade that is fresh from a mould can go one of two ways:

1. the fresh from the mold blade is close to the final thickness at the edge to facilitate fewer grinding steps, and would warp like hell when exposed to the heat changes in the heat treat process, thus rendering it useless.

2. the fresh from the mold blade is thick enough to withstand the heat treat process with no, or minimal, warpage thus requiring very careful grinding to achieve the final dimensions and still maintain the hardness of the blade, thus adding considerable work to the process.

Put simply, if there were a more economic method of producing razor of comparable quality, the current manufacturers or custom razorsmiths would be doing it.

*edit: the exception to this is the "disposable" feather straights that use a generic replaceable blade that is stamped out of thin hardened sheet metal stock, and given a decent edge. they are cheap because the sheet steel is used for other more popular items as well. so you may be able to offer a more attractive model that adapts these disposable blades or something like that.

I like this dialogue. Particularly when we discuss the actual process of metal work (molds, CNC production, etc.). I know the general idea has hurdles and I think so many of them have been laid out well here.

On the flip side of the coin, there's a guy in Pakistan and China (they're male-centric countries so I'm assuming a guy is in charge) that said, 'we're going to make a straight razor. we don't know how, but we'll do it. It will be junk, but we'll do it. Heaven knows if there's a market, but we'll invest the capital and do it.' And so, those two countries have product. How is that? I always thought Pakistan had a struggling industry. Are they getting investment from Europe and the former Russian states? Also, will their blades get better with time? Will they push the better makes out of the market on price point alone? Somehow I think it might.

Again, I'm just trying to see the hurdles before I take any kind of leap and I think you guys are truly helping me see the picture a little clearer.

Don't forget that the pakistani market is a wee bit bigger than most other national markets, and the average Pakistani probably can't afford a TI.

And also, investment capital and production costs are significantly lower if quality and consistency are way down on the priority list below shiny and cheap.

Ummmm.... let me get this right.... you're thinking of mass producing a razor for the American market... the market prolific with people who got too lazy to get out of their chairs to change the channel on a TV?? And you're going to... expect them to strop and hone these razors on a regular basis and to carefully wipe them dry after each use?? And you expect them to spend time whipping up lather and rinsing out brushes.

:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao Surely you jest.

I have mailed for a while with Puma to see if they would be interested in producing a number of blades of the same quality as the vintage ones if I guaranteed buying the lot. They weren't really. I was told Puma silver steel wasn't actually anything special at all, at Puma they reckon the Puma razors' reputation was due to the grind. They said they had scrapped the last hollow grinder when it broke and the last razor maker had retired 10 years ago. They actually recommended I buy a Puma 2nd hand.

Looking at the prices Boker ask for their newly manufactured razors I wonder if it is worth the effort. Either Boker is very greedy or, restarting production and training staff is a costly procedure.

My $0.02.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by azjoe

Ummmm.... let me get this right.... you're thinking of mass producing a razor for the American market... the market prolific with people who got too lazy to get out of their chairs to change the channel on a TV?? And you're going to... expect them to strop and hone these razors on a regular basis and to carefully wipe them dry after each use?? And you expect them to spend time whipping up lather and rinsing out brushes.

:roflmao:roflmao:Surely you jest.

---

We just need to get a clever advertising guru interested in promoting straight razor shaving, making the American public believe the extra smoothness of a straight razor shave attracts lots of bimbos and improves sex life.:roflmao :roflmao
If the hype catches on lots of straight razors will be manufactured and sold, when people realize it doesn't work that way the market will be swamped with little used straight razors that will lower the prices for us.:w :w

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by azjoe

Ummmm.... let me get this right.... you're thinking of mass producing a razor for the American market... the market prolific with people who got too lazy to get out of their chairs to change the channel on a TV?? And you're going to... expect them to strop and hone these razors on a regular basis and to carefully wipe them dry after each use?? And you expect them to spend time whipping up lather and rinsing out brushes.

:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao Surely you jest.

---

Every man (and at least one woman) on this forums does...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

This situation isn't really feasible, heat treating a blade that is fresh from a mould can go one of two ways:

1. the fresh from the mold blade is close to the final thickness at the edge to facilitate fewer grinding steps, and would warp like hell when exposed to the heat changes in the heat treat process, thus rendering it useless.

2. the fresh from the mold blade is thick enough to withstand the heat treat process with no, or minimal, warpage thus requiring very careful grinding to achieve the final dimensions and still maintain the hardness of the blade, thus adding considerable work to the process.

Put simply, if there were a more economic method of producing razor of comparable quality, the current manufacturers or custom razorsmiths would be doing it.

*edit: the exception to this is the "disposable" feather straights that use a generic replaceable blade that is stamped out of thin hardened sheet metal stock, and given a decent edge. they are cheap because the sheet steel is used for other more popular items as well. so you may be able to offer a more attractive model that adapts these disposable blades or something like that.

---

Gilette figured how to mass produce disposable razors by stacking them close together while heat treating to avoid warping and cracking...
I wonder if a mold or jig could be made to hug the blades durring the heat treating process to prevent this warpage, and make mass production possible...

Ya see what we need is a few manly stars, guys like Chuck Norris and Sly Stallone and that kick Boxing Dude to make the rounds of all the late night and talk shows extolling the virtues of straight razor shaving. I can guarantee you guys will come flocking to straight shaving just for the he-man factor.

Lets just say in the next year or 2 it would not surprise me to see a US production razor of quality;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taz

Lets just say in the next year or 2 it would not surprise me to see a US production razor of quality;)

---

quality isn't the problem, it's the quantity that's the issue in my mind. If there's low demand then the price will only be affordable by the Rolex guys... OR it will have to be made in China where the average wage is $5/day. :shrug:

what would happen if a man with enough knowledge about steel visited the folks who mass-produce pakistani razors?

They have the cheap labor, couldn't they turn out some quality blanks that are competitively priced?

Just thinking...RH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by richardhead

what would happen if a man with enough knowledge about steel visited the folks who mass-produce pakistani razors?

They have the cheap labor, couldn't they turn out some quality blanks that are competitively priced?

Just thinking...RH

---

They's have to start by buying quality steel to begin with, instead of anything that looks irony.
Then they'd have to invest in heat treating equipment.
They'd also have to make a decision to throw away anything that does not pass quality norms

I'm not saying it would be impossible, but you'd have to have a reason for them to do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Ya see what we need is a few manly stars, guys like Chuck Norris and Sly Stallone and that kick Boxing Dude to make the rounds of all the late night and talk shows extolling the virtues of straight razor shaving. I can guarantee you guys will come flocking to straight shaving just for the he-man factor.

---

Uhhh, I'm not at all sure Chuck is the right man to advertise straight shaving (or any kind of shaving), at least not in the state I usually see him on TV...:D OH! You mean he's the "before" picture....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by azjoe

quality isn't the problem, it's the quantity that's the issue in my mind. If there's low demand then the price will only be affordable by the Rolex guys... OR it will have to be made in China where the average wage is $5/day. :shrug:

---

I do not think demand would be an issue. TI and Dovo can not keep up right now. This will always be a niche but that niche is growing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by azjoe

quality isn't the problem, it's the quantity that's the issue in my mind. If there's low demand then the price will only be affordable by the Rolex guys... OR it will have to be made in China where the average wage is $5/day. :shrug:

---

Dude I wear a Rolex was that an insult:roflmao

After thoroughly considering the issue I've come to the conclusion that it simply isn't time for straights to make a mass comeback, and that is a good thing. I very much enjoy the way straights are now and being part of something that isn't advertised during the superbowl. Not to say there couldn't be some very cool superbowl adverts for straights, but with the good comes the bad. Imagine sitting through a lame straight razor commercial that is so bad it makes you want to reach out for a Bic disposable. Perhaps that's what led me here in the first place- Tiger Woods spouting some dumb line about whatever while holding a Gillette. Nothing personal against Tiger, just cheesy shaving commercials.

Still, it'd be cool to be the straight razor manufacturing guru in America. The one with the commercials that say, 'nothing shaves closer- period!' Ah, to dream.

Candide taps me on the shoulder to remind me, "Tis well said, but we must cultivate our gardens."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

Gilette figured how to mass produce disposable razors by stacking them close together while heat treating to avoid warping and cracking...
I wonder if a mold or jig could be made to hug the blades durring the heat treating process to prevent this warpage, and make mass production possible...

---

well, part of the problem is warpage, but the steel expands and contracts in all directions so even a mold/jig wouldn't be able to stop the wild lengthwise fluctuations along the edge of the blade. And I know from experience that heat treating a blade with a thin edge and a thick back means very different rates of cooling and thus uneven shrinking with HIGH probability of cracking.

maybe it could be done with a standard style straight razor, but it would take mass amounts of R&D to develop the method, as well as specialized machines.