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  1. #1
    Member Chrisgiraffe's Avatar
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    Default New Blade Production- Unrealistic?

    Has anyone in the forum considered having a steel fabricator make a production run of blades to their specification? I haven't been here long but I have seen a couple of attempts to sell new production straights to members. The last post I recall was from someone who ordered their blades from an unnamed Solingen manufacturer (everyone guessed Dovo, which was probably right), fitted some scales to them and etched their name. Kamakazi? Kumatsu? Something Asian or other (I remember a dragon). I recall the reseller wanting to charge some rediculous price for an unproven blade and the blade not doing to well in terms of sharpening and quality control (three were provided to honemeisters here and all three found the blade unsatisfactory for the price point).

    If anyone has or has considered such a venture I'd like to hear about it. I'm curious what problems one might run into. I can appreciate fine hand craftsmanship but I'm wondering why there isn't a reliable American presence in the market. I'm wondering if the costs are just too high to justify new production and what other factors are holding such a project back. I think this forum definitely has members with the know how and I think there are some outstanding machinists in this country who could match to specifications. I'm just trying to figure out the gap between know-how and product.

  2. #2
    Shaves like a pirate jockeys's Avatar
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    chris:

    If I had to hazard a guess (and that's all it is) I'd guess that it's more an economic issue than a technical one. Razors are very labor intensive things to produce (to produce WELL, zeepks are cheap) and even assuming you had minimal R&D costs (exact alloy to use, exact heat treat process to use, establish grinding methodology, etc, etc) because you already had a good idea, you already had all the tools you needed (not likely unless you own a machine shop), you still have a pretty high continuing cost of production.

    Couple that with the pickiness of the non-entry level straight razor market (read: us) and you are going to have a rough time efficiently producing a razor that is both cheap enough and good enough. You've got shops that get around this by making lots of razors that are merely pretty good, and relatively reasonably priced. Dovo is a good example of this; they overcome the startup costs with volume. You've also got shops like Zowada down in the hill country that make awesome razors (high cost of production due to high amount of expert labor needed) that cost nearly 4 figures.

    I'm guessing that any potential commercial (non-hobbyist) razor producer has thought of this and realizes that all the niches (in what is basically a niche market to begin with) are filled; thus, no more available profit may be wrung from the market.

    I mean, it's all well and good to talk about even a group buy, but with a production run that small you'd have to be making razors the Zowada way and not the Dovo way to break even. And it's a bit of a stretch to think that a freshman entry into the market will be able to compete favorably with Zowada or Wacker at the same price point.

    Anyone agree/disagree? I think there are most likely a lot of people that COULD be making razors right here in the good old US of A, but they just don't see the profit in it. (warning: pun) Their margins would have to be razor thin.
    Last edited by jockeys; 01-22-2008 at 06:03 PM. Reason: spelling errors

  3. #3
    Senior Member Kenrup's Avatar
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    Default

    If the cartridge manufactures continue to increase prices, we will see an increase in traditional shaving. But as stated, it's a niche market. Those in the cottage industry side of the equation would just as soon see it stay that way. I suspect we will see DEs make a dramatic show in the near future.

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    I dont know about completely unrealistic. I guess it would all be down to the product they were producing. A full hollow ground razor for example would be especially difficult to produce without specialist tooling and a lot of time. Traditional wedge blades however would be much more viable and easy to make, i would have thought that any hobbyist knifemaker who works their own blades would be able to make a wedge blade fairly easily as the grinding aspect is pretty simple.

  5. #5
    Junior Honemeister Mike_ratliff's Avatar
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    you still have to deal with proper tempering, knowing how to anneal the steel, and maintaining your quality control.
    It would only take a few bad blades to ruin your reputation, and end your sales.

  6. #6
    Heat it and beat it Bruno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgiraffe View Post
    I'm wondering why there isn't a reliable American presence in the market.
    There is little need for razors with cupholders

    Ok mainly it is about economics. There aren't too much people in the world buying high end razors. So small volume kills any factory plans.
    The no-frills market is taken by dovo, and the quality market is captured by TI, and now boker again.

    And these factories are already up and running, in a steady state and have taken care of initial investment losses, simply by keeping alive while competitors went bankrupt.

    Building a new factory, getting expertise in all steps is extremely expensive, and really hit and miss.

    This means there are only 2 opportunities:
    - small time hobbyists who turn out to be great bladesmiths, like tim Zowada, Robert Williams and mastro livi, and people like Joe Chandler and Bill Ellis, who are not smiths per se, but still equally good.
    - existing knife makers who want to get into the market, and make enough money to carry the cost and risk of the initial investment. I'm pretty sure that spyderco could achieve this. As an added bonus, companies like spyderco already have a certain amount of fame when it comes to knives, helping them gain foothold
    Til shade is gone, til water is gone, Into the shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath.
    To spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the Last Day

  7. #7
    JGS
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    There is another possibility...

    I have not checked pricing on this, but going to a fabrication/machining shop where you can pick the steel and the grinding profiles for your order.

    I am not sure what the minimum would be, but it should be possible to have the blades cut to shape and ground with only honing still to go along with adding scales.

  8. #8
    Shaves like a pirate jockeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGS View Post
    I am not sure what the minimum would be, but it should be possible to have the blades cut to shape and ground with only honing still to go along with adding scales.
    That would be possible, but it would also be worthless. Unless the blades are properly heat treated and tempered, they will never take an edge.

  9. #9
    Member Chrisgiraffe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGS View Post
    There is another possibility...

    I have not checked pricing on this, but going to a fabrication/machining shop where you can pick the steel and the grinding profiles for your order.

    I am not sure what the minimum would be, but it should be possible to have the blades cut to shape and ground with only honing still to go along with adding scales.
    Ah, see, that is where I was going with this. I've been shopping around machine shops to do work on another project (new woodworking tool) and thought, 'perhaps these guys could actually produce blades'. They are pretty efficient in terms of shaping but I hadn't considered heat treating and tempering. Still, I think that would be the best (if only possible way) for the lone penniless hopeful (i.e. me! ) to attempt something like this- if it's even possible at all.

    Of course there really are more sides to this than just making great blades (an obvious necessity). The other side is convincing America that straights are the way to go. That kind of convincing isn't impossible but it takes work, time, creativity and money. I mean, think about it, if America can be convinced to buy and throw away their razor at any cost every week, why can't they be convinced they should be using a straight?

    Somehow I imagine the board members of Gillette and Wilkinson wincing at the thought.

    Perhaps the new market isn't in America at all. Perhaps the new straight razor market is in Japan, South Korea or China.

    Pardon my musings.

  10. #10
    JGS
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    Obviously non-tempered blades would not be very good shavers...appreciate that insight.

    I am aware of a shop that does the whole thing with the metal. They heat-treat and grind on a liquid cooled computer operated grinder to protect the temper.

    Cost would likely make this a problem without a large order.

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