Corse Buffing Compounds: Status Report

I mentioned a while back that I was going to try coarse buffing compounds as a means of blade restoration, so here's a bit of a status report. Testing is not complete.

The equipment:

• 80 grit greaseless compound
• 120 grit greaseless compound
• 220 grit greaseless compound
• 320 grit greaseless compound
• Black Emery Compound
• Stainless Compound
• White Rouge
• Standard Bench Grinder (~3400 rpm)
• 8" Sisal Wheels for the 80-120-220-320 and emery
• 8" Spiral Cotton Wheels for the Stainless and White Rouge
• A glass of water

Step 1: Inspected the blades to be refinished
Step 2: Using flapwheels and a dremel, major pitting was removed and smoothed to 400 grit. The scratch marks on the last pass were purposely left in a single direction.
Step 3: Proceeded to the compounds, first going perpendicular to previous grit's scratch lines until they disapeared, then leaving new ones perpendicular to those.
Step 4: A liquid smooth mirror finish

Comments: The glass of water was to quench the blade. This had to be done often to avoid heat buildup. All of the compounds up to and including the emery threw sparks. A very respectably smooth satin finish was left after the 320 grit, comparable to a fine bead blasted finish, but a little more directional.

I did 4 blades last week in about two and a half hours, from crusty to divine. This method beats the hell out of hand sanding, but requires much more space and investment in equipment.

More comments to follow once I get a chance todo some more blades.

I am building a buffing setup to do wood work but expect it would work great for double duty on blades.

I too am using a standard grinder. From your initial results, do you think this would work better with slowing it down, say to 1700 RPM instead? I ask since I recently used a buffing setup run by a slow speed motor and the lower speed seemed to work better (polishing wood and plastic).

I'd also be curious who you ordered the compounds from.... Been searching around but haven't narrowed any suppliers down.

Thanks!

v/r

Allen

Another question...

Are the tubes of compounds actually a "stick" form or more like toothpaste? I am familiar with the sticks (like Tripolli) and like how they work....

Thanks for the informative post. I have been playing with some of the same stuff recently. I have 400 and 600 greaseless compound and blending bar buffing compound and white rouge compound. I have not been able to get completely rid of the scratch marks. Did the black emery compound remove the 320 grit scratches?

I bought my supplies at Jantz knife supply, because I could go by in person to pick up.

Charlie

Very glad to hear your report.

Do be careful with buffers, though. They are considered the most dangerous tool in many shops, although they look pretty harmless. Really, 3450 RPM is too fast for buffing unless you're really experienced. Most knifemakers shudder at the thought of going over 1700 RPMs. A blade can get snatched out of your hand and hurled at 90 mph in random directions.

Read up on buffer safety. :)

Josh

I think everyone who has ever used a buffer or grinder has had a blade snatched out of their hands.... probably more than once. It is indeed extremely dangerous. Almost killed my cat once. And my fingers tips are scared for life..... And I have broken many blades.... all you newbies be careful!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Very glad to hear your report.

Do be careful with buffers, though. They are considered the most dangerous tool in many shops, although they look pretty harmless. Really, 3450 RPM is too fast for buffing unless you're really experienced. Most knifemakers shudder at the thought of going over 1700 RPMs. A blade can get snatched out of your hand and hurled at 90 mph in random directions.

Read up on buffer safety. :)

Josh

---

+1 Josh. I used to make knives and started with a 1 1/2 horse 3400rpm buffer. After it grabbed one and slung it THROUGH the door I went for a smaller hp and slower buffer.
It is, make no mistake about it, the MOST dangerous tool in the shop!

Fred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drfred

+1 Josh. I used to make knives and started with a 1 1/2 horse 3400rpm buffer. After it grabbed one and slung it THROUGH the door I went for a smaller hp and slower buffer.
It is, make no mistake about it, the MOST dangerous tool in the shop!

Fred

---

:eek:

I know that Joe Chandler lost a finger tip this way (luckily it only sliced off skin and meat, no bone) and If not for a leather apron, WayneD would have sung soprano from that fateful day onwards...

I learned as a youth from a shop teacher the hazards of buffers. He had a few stories that put the fear of God into me. So fortunately I have not had a serious incident, yet. I picked up a speed controller used for routers from Harbor Freight that allows me to slow things way down.

I agree with all the warnings,and would add to spend a few days working under an experienced operator before before cutting loose.One of the guys in our shop had his thumb snatched out.eventually they will bite everybody Regards Gary

This is the one thing I've felt the restoration forum was missing--some good buffer stories. :)

I use a buffer, and I haven't had any accidents yet. But if you get cocky...

Learn what to do and not do, and wear some safety equipment. Position the buffer so that it overhangs your work table. That way if a blade gets grabbed it will probably hit the floor rather than bouncing off the workbench, then the wall, then you. :eek:

Josh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RMC_SS_LDO

I am building a buffing setup to do wood work but expect it would work great for double duty on blades.

I too am using a standard grinder. From your initial results, do you think this would work better with slowing it down, say to 1700 RPM instead? I ask since I recently used a buffing setup run by a slow speed motor and the lower speed seemed to work better (polishing wood and plastic).

I'd also be curious who you ordered the compounds from.... Been searching around but haven't narrowed any suppliers down.

Thanks!

v/r

Allen

---

I ordered the stuff from Eastwood. The grealess compounds are stiffer than toothpaste, I'd say more like a marzipan consistency. What you have to do is charge the wheel, then let it dry for 8 hours.

On the issue of speed, I would say it works out to be just about right (perhaps a few ft/sec more than optimal, but far from "too fast"). Using 8" wheels as opposed to 10" or 12" reduces the speed and allows for easier contouring. Ideally I think I would have ordered 6" wheels, but hindsight is 20/20.

This link provides some good info:
http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?i...88&iSubCat=855

No worries on safety. I wear a leather apron, gloves and face shield with neck guard. I also have experience buffing, albeit mostly with rouges up until recently.

FYI a standard buffer used in jewelry would use a 6" wheel at 3450 rpm that would be approximately 60 miles per hour.

8" = 82 mph
10" = 102 mph
12" = 123 mph

I use one every day except days off , unless I'm goofing off at home. I can say this ....IF you have not used one before get instruction. I have seen too many fingers in jars and on the floor to want to hear about it in these forums as well. If you can get a local jeweler to show you the ropes. Or anyone who does plating...chrome shops. If your lucky enough, get a knife maker to show you. Now if you don't have anyone to instruct you but have questions please feel free to PM me with them.....Dave

Oh just imagine what a sharp razor could do to your face while shaving.....NOW imagine the same razor hitting you at 60 miles an hour..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belegnole

FYI a standard buffer used in jewelry would use a 6" wheel at 3450 rpm that would be approximately 60 miles per hour.

8" = 82 mph
10" = 102 mph
12" = 123 mph

I use one every day except days off , unless I'm goofing off at home. I can say this ....IF you have not used one before get instruction. I have seen too many fingers in jars and on the floor to want to hear about it in these forums as well. If you can get a local jeweler to show you the ropes. Or anyone who does plating...chrome shops. If your lucky enough, get a knife maker to show you. Now if you don't have anyone to instruct you but have questions please feel free to PM me with them.....Dave

Oh just imagine what a sharp razor could do to your face while shaving.....NOW imagine the same razor hitting you at 60 miles an hour..

---

Amen.

Josh

The polisher/buffer I've used was a 1700 RPM one and was only used to buff out scales (no blade work). It was plenty fast and why I was asking about the 3400 RPM ones.... seems too easy to get away from you or scorch something.

I'll post up some pics of the finished buffing setup I'm building but it won't be done for a long time (cash strapped for now).


v/r

Allen

Quote:

---

seems too easy to get away from you or scorch something.

---

It can get away from you...yes, but with a touch of learning and attentiveness you can do it. As to heat; I have been using one for 25 years now and I still end up with blisters on my fingertips sometimes. Of course when I do this I'm not working on something that is heat sensitive in the same way. Usually it's silver that causes the blisters. When I work with anything that IS heat sensitive I keep a quench at hand and use it when needed. You will also quickly get to know when it's time to back off and either quench or air cool.

A thought.....one of the reasons that people loos control of a piece while buffing is that the object gets tugged out of their hand because thing get slippery. For some things I have mad a handle or way to hold on to a item where there is almost no way to loose your grip. With a razor you could probably rig something up. but I haven't come up with a idea that I feel is safe enough to share ....yet....Boards vice grips and C-claps come to mind though

What you could is make a wooden blade holder to clamp the blade.

Say what you want about dremel polishing, but at least the risk of skewering yourself is minimal (of course I assume that NOONE is buffing razors with bystanders in the vicinity).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belegnole

It can get away from you...yes, but with a touch of learning and attentiveness you can do it. As to heat; I have been using one for 25 years now and I still end up with blisters on my fingertips sometimes. Of course when I do this I'm not working on something that is heat sensitive in the same way. Usually it's silver that causes the blisters. When I work with anything that IS heat sensitive I keep a quench at hand and use it when needed. You will also quickly get to know when it's time to back off and either quench or air cool.

A thought.....one of the reasons that people loos control of a piece while buffing is that the object gets tugged out of their hand because thing get slippery. For some things I have mad a handle or way to hold on to a item where there is almost no way to loose your grip. With a razor you could probably rig something up. but I haven't come up with a idea that I feel is safe enough to share ....yet....Boards vice grips and C-claps come to mind though

---

I wear mechanics gloves when I'm working with the grinder. I don't buff my hide if I bump the wheel. If I feel heat through the gloves, I let things cool. I also have a firmer grip.
Once upon a time in a land far away, Minnesota that is. One of my summer jobs during my college days was working as a grinder in a foundry. I used huge 4" wide very long belts. When I had job lot of bronze I had to wear welders gloves. I remember how many times my hands were spared by those gloves. I noticed lately that 110lb aluminum flange is a bit different then a razor blade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belegnole

With a razor you could probably rig something up. but I haven't come up with a idea that I feel is safe enough to share ....yet....Boards vice grips and C-claps come to mind though

---

How about, if you're doing a restoration with the scales off the blade, you can use a #2 screw to affix the blade to an appropriate block of wood/2x4/piece of plywood?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RMC_SS_LDO

The polisher/buffer I've used was a 1700 RPM one and was only used to buff out scales (no blade work). It was plenty fast and why I was asking about the 3400 RPM ones.... seems too easy to get away from you or scorch something.
Allen

---

Bill Ellis says on his CD that 1750 and an 8" wheel is plenty fast enough...and still requires caution.:eek:

Here is some more usefull information:
http://www.caswellplating.com/buffs/buffman.htm

I realize the 3400 rpm motor speed is a little on the high side, but I've safely achieved excellent results from this setup. Would I recommend this technique to a novice restorer with no previous experience with buffers or other power tools? Absolutely not. I'm 23 and I've been using tools that could take my head off since I was 10.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bruno

What you could is make a wooden blade holder to clamp the blade.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphim

How about, if you're doing a restoration with the scales off the blade, you can use a #2 screw to affix the blade to an appropriate block of wood/2x4/piece of plywood?

---

Wood with a screw might work but the blade should remain flat (like when honing) on the board.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kenrup

I wear mechanics gloves when I'm working with the grinder. I don't buff my hide if I bump the wheel. If I feel heat through the gloves, I let things cool. I also have a firmer grip.
Once upon a time in a land far away, Minnesota that is. One of my summer jobs during my college days was working as a grinder in a foundry. I used huge 4" wide very long belts. When I had job lot of bronze I had to wear welders gloves. I remember how many times my hands were spared by those gloves. I noticed lately that 110lb aluminum flange is a bit different then a razor blade.

---

I remember having good results while buffing some odd shaped items. I use a leather strap....around 2" wide. Why I didn't think of it earlier I cannot say.I'll blame mental separation from work....oh the strap is slightly longer than the work piece. Both items are held with one hand while the other had supports from underneath.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fritz

Bill Ellis says on his CD that 1750 and an 8" wheel is plenty fast enough...and still requires caution.:eek:

---

I just spent the day looking locally for a 6" 1700rpm grinder with not much luck. Bill is right (not that I would argue with him) though You can buff with a 3450rpm motor. You just have to be a bit more careful with the heat and safety.

I had a blade shatter at 1200 on an 8" last night. I was wearing the standard safety equipment, though I do work with bare hands. Surprising to say the least :shrug:.

Sorry to hear that...I hope nothing else was damaged, especially yourself. I know the feeling you had when it happened and surprising is almost a understatement.

I think one of the reasons buffing is dangerous is because it seems so safe. I mean, you have that little motor with a soft, fluffy wheel attached to it. What could it possibly do to hurt you? Compared to a table saw, the danger seems remote.

I haven't had any accidents yet, and I hope I never do. But every time I reach for that power switch I remind myself that buffing requires concentration and care.

Josh

:shrug: Maybe this is a silly question, but I can't see why they generally sell single speed ones, why aren't they just all 'rotation speed adjustable buffer machines/multi speeds buffers'? :shrug:

The biggest problem I have found when buffing is having the leading edge (the edge first encountered by the wheel) of the workpiece catch on the wheel. You have to be constantly thinking about the angle at which the workpiece encounters the wheel and make sure that the leading edge touches the wheel only lightly at best. Of course, the edge of the blade should never be the leading edge during buffing. Let the compund do the work and resist the urge to put more pressure on the wheel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joelski78

:shrug: Maybe this is a silly question, but I can't see why they generally sell single speed ones, why aren't they just all 'rotation speed adjustable buffer machines/multi speeds buffers'? :shrug:

---

In a word: cost.

I never buff edge leading, and neither should anyone else in any situation. There are always other options. If you can't do the side of the blade entirely edge trailing or parallel, then either your wheel is too big, you're holding the blade wrong or the last razor you buffed edge leading is lodged in your frontal lobe. Often, especially with sisal wheels (the kind used for most of my coarse compounds) threads come loose and whip around, sometimes up to 2-3 inches from the rest of the wheel. These could easily catch the edge and damage the razor, you or your workshop. If you're buffing edge-trailing and are holding on to the blade properly, this shouldn't be a problem.

On a side note, as an added comment to the initial report...
Always rake your wheels for coarse compounds when you're done then re-paste them before putting them away. This will ensure that they are always clean, uniform and charged for the next time you use them. For greasy compounds, rake and charge right before use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joelski78

:shrug: Maybe this is a silly question, but I can't see why they generally sell single speed ones, why aren't they just all 'rotation speed adjustable buffer machines/multi speeds buffers'? :shrug:

---

I found one very small vari-speed one that was insufficient for what I needed. I also looked at slow speed motors and buffer set-up but they were more than I wanted to spend.

Solution: build it. I am finishing construction on "Franken-Bench" that includes a buffing "station". Using a standart 3400 RPM bench grinder (that I got for free), I am mounting a 1.75" pully to drive another pully at 3.45". Quick math puts speed stepped down to about 1725 RPM. Another (not-so-quick) pully change, I could adjust speed as required. I don't anticipate needing any other speeds (using 6" buffing wheels) but I have the option.

I'll post pics of Franken-Bench next weekend if I can get all of the parts in and get it finished.....

v/r

Allen

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belegnole

...
I just spent the day looking locally for a 6" 1700rpm grinder with not much luck. Bill is right (not that I would argue with him) though You can buff with a 3450rpm motor. You just have to be a bit more careful with the heat and safety.

---

Junk washing machines are an excellent free source of 1750 rpm AC motors. (Usually the motor is still good and something else on the washer breaks.) You only need about a 1/4 to 1/2 hp motor for buffing, so don't look for grinder motors...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fritz

Junk washing machines are an excellent free source of 1750 rpm AC motors. (Usually the motor is still good and something else on the washer breaks.) You only need about a 1/4 to 1/2 hp motor for buffing, so don't look for grinder motors...

---

That's a great tip fritz.Thanks.

Wow... Somehow I missed this thread. This is my deal. I tend to use the stainless and white polishing compound which tends to be made of aluminum oxide but there are several white "rouges" as it where. But I would suggest that most of you guys use a dremmel with a flex shaft because it is easier to control and far less likely to rip the blade out of your hand and take off finger tips or, worse, destroy the blade. I have a 6" and an 8" pedestal buff for this stuff and I usually use my dremmel.

If you guys want to know what works best, call the guys at English Custom Polish. They will walk you through what compounds to use and how to do it.

I actually just wanted to bring this thread back to life as I always read so many good tips and talks about the polishing and buffing.

It seems I never hear talk of the 'Surface Feet Per Minute' or SFM. If followed properly you can calculate the ideal dia of the wheel to be used for a particular material.

SFM relates to the distance in feet that the workpiece surface or cutting edge travels in one minute.

There's a simple math formula for this.

SFM = 1/4 of the wheels's diameter * arbor speed.

The ideal SFM for Stainless Steel is around 8000 sf/min. Plastics go from 1200 to 4000 sf/min.

When buffing with speeds over 5000 sf/min you get into 'molecule migration' territory. In short, molecules start to move around and this is what cause the heat generation which can become to excessive.

For example If you are using a 3600rpm polisher and by using a 10" wheel = 1/4 of 10 inches = 2.5 inches * 3600 = 9000 SFM.
A little high. It could pass but by chosing an 8" wheel it becomes (2 inches x 3600rpm) 7200 SFM. It's lower but it could work too.

Now you con easily use an 8" wheel on an 1800 RPM polisher = equals 3600 SFM. It's far from the 8000 needed for steel. Difference is it will take you much much longer to get the desired result but at a safer usage.

Off course no one says you need to follow this procedure but it can give you an easy and rough estimate as to what wheel to use.

I tend to use my 1800 RPM for buffing, the 3600 for polishing and my dremel which gets most usage.

I always wear safetly glasses, special gloves and a leather apron at all times when using my polishers/buffers.

I have a grinder/buffer coming in the mail. I also have flap wheels coming and will also hand sand some. What compound should I start at if I am stopping that sanding at 400 let's say?

I have found the 120 grit I use cuts more like 400 grit flapwheels. The 220 is like 400 grit hand sanding.