Greaseless compound buffing question

I have a question about using greaseless compounds:

I've taken apart two razors and used my variable speed Porter Cable buffer at the lowest speed and a progression of 80-600 greasless compounds to clean/buff the blades.

What I've found is that I've wound up with an uneven edge – i.e a slight frown in one area- twice.
When I work on the blade, I always use a light touch to sweep the blade (edge down) across the wheel from heel to tip. And I've done everything I can to ensure the blade-to-wheel angle and pressure are constant the entire time.

I've repeatedly watched the buffing videos in the SRP Wiki, and I've read everything I can find in the forums, but I may have missed something.

Any suggestions, or maybe a link to the post/wiki article I'm missing, would be greatly appreciated.

I'm very new at this, and I've only been trying this on razors I've gotten for dirt cheap off the Bay, specifically to practice with, but I'd like to refine my technique before trying this on a razor that isn't a 'practice' or 'junk' piece and I'm not sure what I'm missing. :thinking:


Thanks for your advice!

I don't know how many routine you have with buffing, but it is not so easy to learn. Practice, and the results will be better and better with time. Practice on the junk razors until they don't look like razors anymore, but they will be shiney like hell :)

What grit are you starting at and how long are you spending on it?

I start with the 80 grit if the razor has pitting and only move up grits once I've removed all the pitting and/or rust (or as much of the pitting as I'm willing to).
I don't concentrate on just the part of the blade that has the pitting, as I try to keep the metal removal uniform across the entire blade.

The explanation is way harder then the fix,,, basically don't push the razor back against the curve of the wheel, the razor edge stays pointing straight down. so that the wheel is never burning the edge off...

I buff spine to edge also, but not everyone does, some buff lengthwise some buff multi directional (except edge to spine :)) so these are other thoughts too...

But what you are doing is following the wheel instead of the other way around,,, Most of the time this is caused by holding the toe and the heel and pushing with the thumbs, DON"T do that... I rest my index finger across the back of the blade it is the safest and easiest to control that I have found... If the spine catches then the blade just pivots away with no risk of a cut... I wish I could do those cool diagrams, but alas I am just not that good with computers, just remember the edge points straight down, never back toward the wheel... BTW I start at 80-120-180-240-320-400-600 then on to polishes so it isn't the grit

Glen-


Yes, I was using my thumb against the back of the blade, up near the back, and allowing blade to follow the curve of the wheel, if that makes sense. It seemed to me that was the best way to actually get the wheel and compound to contact the part of the top of the blade (nearest the back) on a non-wedge razor.
Also, I think Undream's video tutorial on restoration shows his thumb against the back of the blade on some of the coarser grits. Although his example didn't seem to have any of the edge reshaped after running on the wheels.
Maybe I'll try running the wheel heel-to-toe to remove pitting on the blade surface itself.


I suppose it's all up to practice, and will definitely give me the opportunity to learn honing! One step at a time.

Think about the relation of the wheel and the edge,,,, if you push the edge back, then the wheel is coming down through the edge of the blade, that you do not want...
You only want to kiss,, the face of the blade, regardless of the direction...

See I told you explaining was harder then the fix LOL

OHHHHHH just don't spin the wheel, turn your buffer off, and hold the razor against it, rock the blade back toward the wheel, and then straight down, and look at the relation to it... That should help...

I will definitely do that.
Umm... once again, I may be missing the obvious (tape?) but is there a way to reduce the 'faux-hone wear' – I just made that term up – of the wheel removing metal from the spine? Seems like the tape would be gone almost instantly, and might get unwanted adhesive all over the wheel.
And yeah, the explanation may be difficult, but I assure you, it's helping.
Thanks again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

...BTW I start at 80-120-180-240-320-400-600 then on to polishes...

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:HJ I use the above progression and also have the Black emery stick,
Blue stick both from Caswell and also a white stick and red rough.
QUESTION: What is the progression of the aforementioned sticks?
Thanks for any help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by axxter

I will definitely do that.
Umm... once again, I may be missing the obvious (tape?) but is there a way to reduce the 'faux-hone wear' – I just made that term up – of the wheel removing metal from the spine? Seems like the tape would be gone almost instantly, and might get unwanted adhesive all over the wheel.
And yeah, the explanation may be difficult, but I assure you, it's helping.
Thanks again.

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Don't push hard against the spine, on the lower grits,,,, the only time you want to push is for pits....
Also for high pits (by the spine) turn the razor lengthwise and just use the the wheel as close to the spine as needed...then turn back to spine to edge buffing to line up the polish, or not....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Think about the relation of the wheel and the edge,,,, if you push the edge back, then the wheel is coming down through the edge of the blade, that you do not want...
You only want to kiss,, the face of the blade, regardless of the direction...

See I told you explaining was harder then the fix LOL

OHHHHHH just don't spin the wheel, turn your buffer off, and hold the razor against it, rock the blade back toward the wheel, and then straight down, and look at the relation to it... That should help...

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Thanks for helping out with this, Glen.

You're definitely right that the explanation is difficult. I'm having trouble getting a few of the terms you're using.

What do you mean when you talk about moving the blade "back" or "straight down"? I think you wrote that rocking the razor back is what messes up the edge, but I don't quite get what that means.

Also, what did you mean by "following the wheel"? Is the alternative to add pressure to make the wheel deform around the razor? I didn't quite get that idea either.

Now to go figure out how you're holding that razor so that your index finger is on the back. I'll play with that a little before I go to sleep tonight ;)

There is a built in dilemma when using the greaseless compounds and a horizontal approach to the wheels. The problem is that usually, any pressure on the spine of the razor will cause the razor to shoot down or out of your hands if you are not careful. Same thing can happen on the regular compounds too. If you lead into the wheel with the edge, you will always get the kind of damage you are describing. This can also happen with fast cutting bars like the grey and emory (black) and depending on your speed, can cause all sorts of fun. You have to be very careful as Glen describes and got direct into the wheel lightly on the areas you want to hit.

I find that when I start, I like to go with the emory at first or even 600 grit on the greaseless just to see what I'm up against and then determine if I need to go with a courser grit.

Be careful with any greaseless as well as high speed about the blade getting warm. It is very easy to alter the temper if you are not careful. Keep water close.........

I tend to buff lengthwise a lot more than horizontal, but this is just my preference and practice along with your results will determine what works best for you.

Have fun,

Lynn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by axxter

I will definitely do that.
Umm... once again, I may be missing the obvious (tape?) but is there a way to reduce the 'faux-hone wear' – I just made that term up – of the wheel removing metal from the spine? Seems like the tape would be gone almost instantly, and might get unwanted adhesive all over the wheel.
And yeah, the explanation may be difficult, but I assure you, it's helping.
Thanks again.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by heirkb

Thanks for helping out with this, Glen.

You're definitely right that the explanation is difficult. I'm having trouble getting a few of the terms you're using.

What do you mean when you talk about moving the blade "back" or "straight down"? I think you wrote that rocking the razor back is what messes up the edge, but I don't quite get what that means.

Also, what did you mean by "following the wheel"? Is the alternative to add pressure to make the wheel deform around the razor? I didn't quite get that idea either.

Now to go figure out how you're holding that razor so that your index finger is on the back. I'll play with that a little before I go to sleep tonight ;)

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I bet pics will help :)

I'll get out to the shop and try and take some tonight...

As soon as you see what I mean yer gonna go "God that is easy" but it makes a huge difference...

+1 with Lynn too, I usually buzz a blade with 600 first to see what is what before, I start burning off metal..

OK my picture taking abilities are much to be desired, I even tried having the wife help, so after two cameras and about 30 pics these are the best I could get....

These first 3 are what I consider to be the correct way to buff the blade, I have really good control with my finger against the back of the blade, and I can feel heat build up in an instant, lastly and most importantly, if the spine catches my fingers are nowhere near the edge...

Attachment 45562

Attachment 45563

Attachment 45564

The last pic here is what the whole thread started over... If you look in all the pics above, the edge is pointing straight down... Here the edge is tilted back toward the wheel which causes the wheel to burn through the edge, which results in a frown being cut very quickly in the razor.... Keep the edge pointing straight down that is what I was trying to explain...

Attachment 45565

See I told you it was much harder to explain, and very easy to understand :)

The pictures definitely made your explanation clear. Especially with the last one for comparison.
I see what you mean about placing your finger along the spine, too. I have been placing my as your pictures show, as well as using my thumb in the same way.
The biggest thing appears to be the angle of the blade in combination with where the point of the blade initially contacts the wheel.

Once again, thanks so much for the advice! :) I just got in a rather rusty M. Boker & Co. with a worked back and a barber's notch, and I didn't want to go any where near it before (quite a bit more practice and) understanding what I needed to be doing to avoid a shiny, but frowning, blade.

Glen, that was all very very helpful. Thank you for the pics! It really was as easy to understand as you said it would be, lol

The index finger issue had me confused too! I thought the hand holding the razor was the hand with the index finger behind the blade and I could not figure out how the heck that was accomplished. The photo definitely helped. It turns out I do the same thing. I just didn't give it a thought.

This thread was a good learning experience for me. I've been using my dremel to clean up eBay razors for a good number of years and have started reading the buffing machine threads and watching the related videos as I'm considering the next step. On the other hand, I already have enough razors for many many lifetimes.

I find that using any sort of pressure is bad. It generates a lot of heat, becomes quickly unsafe, etc...

When I am using low grit greaseless, I am using very little pressure in my videos...letting the compound do the work... the more you press into the compound, the more likely it is to detach/come off the wheel..causing you to have to constantly reload..thereby making any time you saved through faster metal removal negated due to the fact you have to reload the wheel...

I also spend minimal amount of time buffing near the edge / applying pressure @ the cutting edge. I typically hold most of the pressure near the spine, I guess I'd say. If you ever see pitting on my razors after I've run them through the progression, its usually near the edge / on the lower half of my blades, because I actually get nervous down there...heat can build up quickly on thin metal and there is just no reason to ruin a blade....no pit removal is worth ruining sometthing IMO.

I guess my advice will be, glens recommendations + some careful guidance of the blade to ensure you're not spending too much time right on the edge...and then a LOT of practice. hehe.

I haven't been able to buff edge down without creating a frown in a razor; after consulting with my go to mentors, Lynn and JoeD, I've started buffing with the blade lengthwise. I also use only about half the width of my wheel at a time to ensure that I'm not working the edge.

Here are two photos I have (not as good as Glen's) to show what I mean. Note in each, the edge is off the wheel. Depending on how hollow the razor is, I walk the blade left to right to get into the hollow, but always keep the edge off the wheel.

Hey Glen, I was looking at your pics again, and noticed the razor. Is that a W&B Bow?

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Hey Glen, I was looking at your pics again, and noticed the razor. Is that a W&B Bow?

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I remember that it is NOT a W&B but to answer the next question I don't remember what it is... Sorry Dylan I have the shop all locked down for Vacation I will check when I get home if you remember to ask me again...

No biggie. I was trying to look slick by guessing, but I've already failed... Whenever I see that toe, it always makes me think Bow.

I find it works better to use greaseless lengthwise like this too, in fact most of my buffing. I alternate a few strokes going the other way when polishing though. Yeah I guess it can round over parts of the razor, but rounded edges are nice aren't they? : )