Honing problem on restore.

I'm having an interesting problem with a straight razor restoration on an old Red Point. Some background on the damage first. The razor had very heavy pitting along the edge but other then that it looked fine.
I removed the metal with pitting to get to the non-pitted steel and went to honing it. This is where things got odd for me. The razor simply would not accept an edge. I could get it sharp but not shaving quality sharp. So I did an experiment, I honed it at a rather steep angle, 22.5 degrees, and it took an edge just fine, but when I went to polish it at that angle the edge fell apart.
I'm thinking that I just didn't shave off enough steel and still haven't hit non-damaged steel. Thought I would get a second opinion from more experienced restorers first before I removed anymore steel and or bashed my head against a wall any longer on this one.

it's certainly a possibility...
is this a wedge or hollow grind? if it's a red point i'm guessing hollow...
any before and after photos?
lastly (and please don't take this the wrong way, i just notice you are a new member) have you been honing long? have you brought any other restore projects up to shave ready for you before?

Lot of guys here call it swiss cheese edge, you can put what looks to be an edge, but the second you start moving to higher grits it falls apart. I would search the site, find some pics and compare to your blade. Oh, and just how much pitting are we talking? If it looks like it was hit with buck shot, then that could be it.

No offense taken! Yes its a hollow grind. Also this isn't my first honing or restore, this would be my 5th restore with the prior 4 being successful. Here's a pic of the razor in its current state. Its hard to see but there is still some very minor pitting near the end of the edge that didn't look like a real problem. I'm mostly wondering, having never dealt with steel that was this damaged, if the steel can "go bad" from the pitting chemically speaking. I had to shave off a pretty good amount of steel to reach the point where it is via no small amount of bread knifing. Attachment 109627

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Originally Posted by tiddle

Lot of guys here call it swiss cheese edge, you can put what looks to be an edge, but the second you start moving to higher grits it falls apart. I would search the site, find some pics and compare to your blade. Oh, and just how much pitting are we talking? If it looks like it was hit with buck shot, then that could be it.

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Yes! I would describe it in the state I found it as looking like Buck shot tore up just the edge. It was quite a mess!

I've had situations where I "thought" I had honed all the way into good steel but additional honing uncovered pits that were already there. I would not breadknife it, but I would continue honing on 1K until I could see good steel under bright light and a 10X loupe. Unless you do that and can see good steel, you are flying (or honing) blind. Sometimes, like on a big ol' Wostenholm I love, the fact is that the interior steel is shot to hell as a result of "Devil's Spit" going deep into the blade, and the pits are just in there waiting to be revealed. In the case of the Wostenholm, there was no solution. I hope you fare better than I did.

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Originally Posted by Steelstubble

This is where things got odd for me. The razor simply would not accept an edge. I could get it sharp but not shaving quality sharp. So I did an experiment, I honed it at a rather steep angle, 22.5 degrees, and it took an edge just fine, but when I went to polish it at that angle the edge fell apart.
I'm thinking that I just didn't shave off enough steel and still haven't hit non-damaged steel. Thought I would get a second opinion from more experienced restorers first before I removed anymore steel and or bashed my head against a wall any longer on this one.

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That is where things got odd for me too, :) what exactly do you mean you honed it at a 22.5° angle ?????

Can you describe what you are doing with this ???

What I found strange you said you polished the razor after you honed it, that's definitely a no no, all polishing and cleaning comes before the final process which is honing, the only thing after honing is stropping, in future make polishing a part of the pre honing stage.

Jamie.

I think when he said that "he went to polish it" he was referring to moving up in higher grits on the hones, in order to polish his bevel.

As for your problem that you describe here.. I have experienced it before, twice, not sure if it is exactly what you have going on or not..

The first time It was on a razor near the point, about a 1/2" spot. I could see the edge, right at the very edge of the bevel, crumble after doing a thumb nail test on the edge - normally something that is safe at the 1k grit level. I continued to reset the bevel, it took around 3-4 times before I seemed to hit good steel, and I did eventually get this one shaving.

Second time, it was on a razor that I was almost 100% sure I had ruined the temper on. And sure enough, I could not get an edge on it to stick, it would just crumble. I binned the razor - an inexpensive learning experience. Too aggressive on the grinder.

So, I don't know if my first razor had tempering problems or not (it was not a razor I had done any buffing to), but, I assume it is possible..

just my 2c

Hello,
Im afraid you gave up too early on setting the bevel. After bread knifing it takes a really long time to set the bevel (I'm sure you are aware).
If you used layers of tape to create a steep angle, then set the bevel with x layers, kill the edge on glass, remove a layer, repeat.

JMHO ;)
Eric.

I would certainly listen to Brad and Glen here; make sure you are using a loupe or some type of magnification when you do these kinds of questionable blades. That pitting may not stand out like a sore thumb, but still give you grief none-the-less. Since you did breadknife the blade, go to youtube look up gssixgun's video on breadknifing a blade, watch it til' your eyes bleed then attempt another bevel set after checking the edge under magnification. Those videos helped me immensely; heck I even did the whole thing WHILE I watched the videos just to be sure. Just a suggestion.

Did a bit more honing and I'm starting to find good steel but only spots of it. There might be hope for this one. Also, lol yes I sharpened it at a 22.5 degree angle to see if it would take an edge period, because it wasn't taking an edge at a normal razor angle. Just a little experiment to confirm my suspicion that the steel was damaged. It's also possible I gave up to early on the bevel so I'll keep that in mind, but I don't think that's the problem.

I have been there with a Bengall I honed. It took about an hour or more of honing on 1K to finally get to the point that the edge wouldn't crumble when you get close to a set bevel. Keep at it and I hope it works out. It is maddening though.

My experiences with some razors is that, unless I look at the bevel/edge with 60X or higher, I miss the many tiny holes eaten through the blade and bevel. Many older razors were used hard and put away wet. Some were never used again; and that is where the trouble comes. Some do not show the pitting and holes at lesser power of 'scope. Most of them I have saved but had to do a lot of 600grit honing to get to good steel.
As a guide:
If a razor has the look of rusty fogging it may be not worth the effort. That means the corrosion has followed the inter crystalline spaces and the whole area is swiss cheese.
Some of the worst brands for that are HESS, Bresduck, C-MON, and some others that used lightly tinted transparent or cracked ice scales. Some of them used a poor quality wedge and the end of the blade may be corroded.
Just my take after quite a few 'bay and antique store razors.
~Richard
An idea of what the corrosion may look like:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...ss/DDrust1.jpg

Anytime you buy a blade from the bay that has rust all over it, it's a big gamble. It's like surgery, you never fully know what's going on til' you get in there and poke around.

Mystery solved, I honed away for a good while and kept finding nothing but Swiss Cheese. The Swiss cheese portions are obvious without magnification in the right light too and they run the entire blade length. It's to bad though, I really wanted to fix this one because I inherited it and it has sentimental value. Have to say though, inheriting 4 razors and finding that 3 out of 4 are just fine is pretty good. I'll consider this a good learning experience and take it as that!

Just want to warn you!! I did one that looked exactly the same, down to the cracked scale. I hone it perfectly. And while I was getting ready to strop it The Scales Fell Apart Into 6 Pieces. Be careful! You may be replacing them real soon!

Are you sure you did not overheat the blade when you removed the pitting?

Hey 3 out of 4 isn't bad at all. If anything it was good practice, and now you know what to look for next time, and know how good steel shouldn't react to honing.