White celluloid?

Hey guys, So, I got a 6/8 top flight w/ white scales in yesterday to start working on soon. The problem...there is a weird smell coming from the scales. They are still mostly white with just barely any yellowing to the material and no brown stains, i didn't think scale rot at first just b/c I figured they were probably bakelite or some other plastic. The smell I can only describe as being musty, almost like a fungus type smell. I am at a loss, I wanted to possibly save these things, but with the slight yellowing (very slight), and the smell, I have quarantined the razor until I can figure out what I may be dealing with. Oh I almost forgot there are some very very very small places where it looks like the top layer of the material has peeled off/flaked off... Could this just be normal gassing of the material as it breaks down, or the start of cell rot? This blade is in excellent condition with perfect etching on the tang, so I am leery about leaving these scales on much longer.

You can get white celluloid - they still make guitar picks from it, for example. You can even get black. It all depends on the colour of the filler. If little filler is used the celluloid is transparent, and dyes are used to colour it. The smell given off by it depends on the original formulation (of which there are many), but people usually describe it as vinegar-like (celluloid acetate), camphor (present in some formulations as a preservative, so may be masking other smells) and an acidic smell followed by spontaneous ignition (cellulose nitrate - early formulation)!

A lot of the 1950s and thereabouts celluloid scales have a distinctive smell, usually of camphor (moth-balls) which is perfectly normal.

The surface crazing is sometimes seen in celluloid, but more often in other types of plastic scale. It is a sign that they are brittle, have shrunk a bit, and about to give up the ghost.

All plastics are perishable, sadly....

Regards,
Neil

I had a Burrell Top Flight before and junked the scales. I don't know what they used (seemed like some sort of plastic or resin rather than celluloid) but the black spacer had badly stained the white scales and they were horribly warped. I have seen ones on ebay in similar condition also.

Now that you mention it it does have a vinegary smell to it, never had any guitar picks smell like that, or much of anything other than sweat and beer lol. Thanks Neil, I may clean these up just for S&G's just to see what I can do with em', if I don't like it...curly bubinga, or black g10 it is.

Had a Case razor from the '50s where the scales shrunk and warped so badly that I couldn't close the blade into them. Yup, the smell was there too.

If you do get a vinegary, ammonia-like or acidic smell, unpin the blade and throw the scales. The first step in making celluloid involves soaking cotton (cellulose) in hydrochloric and (sometimes) sulphuric acid - nitrating it to produce gun-cotton, highly explosive! When celluloid breaks down it releases an acidic vapour - celluloid acetate produces the vinegar smell, the smell they noticed before a lot of the old acetate film for movies exploded. It will etch into the steel of your razor, break down to form water, and rust it.

Regards,
Neil

Well crap, that's a shame b/c the scales are straight and no damage other than the problem I said. Welp, guess I will be unpinning these and trashing them tonight, I didn't think about the old celluloid film and its ability to spontaneously combust, thanks Neil you saved me a big headache later down the road.

Okay then guess I'm looking @:
1. curly bubinga w/ nickel silver lined blue g10 wedge

2. black g10 with blue g10 wedge

3. Jade g10 w/ purple heart wedge

Any suggestions fellas?

Had the same thing happen a couple of months ago. eBay buy. Good price beautiful blade. And smelled like S..t!
Tried Baricide and it only made it worse. Sometime soon I'll try another set of scales.

You're right on the spontaneous ignition . Lived next to a film making plant growing up. The fire house was located less than 200 ft from the buildings. Seems when they 1st opened before WW2 it was a real problem!

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

If you do get a vinegary, ammonia-like or acidic smell, unpin the blade and throw the scales. The first step in making celluloid involves soaking cotton (cellulose) in hydrochloric and (sometimes) sulphuric acid - nitrating it to produce gun-cotton, highly explosive! When celluloid breaks down it releases an acidic vapour - celluloid acetate produces the vinegar smell, the smell they noticed before a lot of the old acetate film for movies exploded. It will etch into the steel of your razor, break down to form water, and rust it.

Regards,
Neil

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Back in the old days tattoo stencils were cut .... engraved with a pin vise holding a 78 rpm victrola needle ..... into celluloid. A tattoo shop in Boston burned down when a bucket of stencils suffered spontaneous combustion.

If I were going to make scales of something other than a natural material it would be some form of acrylic.

The difference between then and now I guess..."This stuff can catch fire just sitting on the shelf," "Really?", "yes", "Well just build a fire department next to the building". :gaah:

I have - accidentally! - set fire to old celluloid scales by drilling out a stuck pin - the camphor holds it back a bit, but once it starts it means business and merrily resists attempts to put it out, other than throwing it in a bucket of water.

I used to make ambrotypes, etc, on glass plates by flowing collodion onto them and sensitizing with lunar caustic. Collodion is made in nearly the same way as celluloid - you nitrate cotton wool then dissolve it in a mixture of ether and alcohol, so I thought I save some money and make my own. Big mistake. The cotton wool caught during nitrification - good job it was wet - instead of an explosion the room filled with billows of orange, acidic smoke. Makes good paint stripper.

the wife still thinks I really wanted to redecorate...

Regards,
Neil

Yowsa! Nothing like the smell of agent orange in the mornin' :rofl2: Did she let you tinker with any "projects" for a while after that one?

I tried to straighten some old Cell scales in hot salt once! :rolleyes: Whoosh!
NOTHING burns like hot celluloid! In 10 seconds the inlay was lying there, perfect as punch!

Burrell blades are the BEST! Burrell scales are...well... the WORST! JMO

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

If I were going to make scales of something other than a natural material it would be some form of acrylic.

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I'm with Jimmy here.
You can get various white acrylics but if you want celluloid these guys will make it :
American Art Plastics

A day in Neil's shop would be one helluva ride folks! :roflmao

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Originally Posted by tiddle

A day in Neil's shop would be one helluva ride folks! :roflmao

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The wise would politely decline any such invitation.

Makes me remember the time I built a reflux condenser to leach out spike oil from lavender to make sandarac varnish with. The thing was cobbled together and had alcohol in the bottom of it. The idea was to place a 100w bulb under it, the alcohol would warm up and give off fumes that would envelop the muslin bag of lavender suspended in it, dissolving the oil, then rise up the column of the condenser which had water pipe wrapped around it - flowing water in the pipe would precipitate the alcohol and it would return, with the spike oil, to the bottom of the condenser.

Anyway, I set it all up, left it for a couple of hours and returned to see how it was going. Nothing. The bottle (bottom of the condenser) was barely warm. I was so annoyed I played the bunsen burner on it to get it going - crack! - it wasn't a pyrex bottle after all. No wonder I got it cheap. I didn't know whether to run or beat out the raging fire. Tool-love got the better of me and I stayed to put it out. Burnt all the hair off my arms and singed the hair on my head. Warmed the shed up a treat, though.

Don't say you haven't been warned!

Regards,
Neil

Reminds of a still, Neil! Spike oil lavenender, yeah. I do think the alchohol part is accurate! :beer2: :chapeau Tom

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Reminds of a still, Neil! Spike oil lavenender, yeah. I do think the alchohol part is accurate! :beer2: :chapeau Tom

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I have no idea what you are suggesting Tom, being brought up by nuns and me being a founder member of the local temperance society. Shame on you!

I hereby nominate Neil as the SRP official guinea pig! That's cool Neil, wouldn't mind helping to figure out how to blow sh!* up; that's 3/4 of the fun man! :y

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I have no idea what you are suggesting Tom, being brought up by nuns and me being a founder member of the local temperance society. Shame on you!

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Wait! ........What's that I hear?????
Could it be King George??? :roflmao

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Wait! ........What's that I hear?????
Could it be King George??? :roflmao

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...ahem.. snookered again. I'm off to the pub!

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I have no idea what you are suggesting Tom, being brought up by nuns and me being a founder member of the local temperance society. Shame on you!

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You seem to have had the same later semi adult reactions to the menopausal penguins as I. 'Twas nice to get me education from the "National Geographic Magazines" in mother Superior's office! Keep up the good work!
~Richard

OK! Back to Burrells! Here are mine. Still undone. The full line of Burell's Top flights (I think!)
A concave and a wedge. I think I shall go with bone on them, eventually!

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

OK! Back to Burrells! Here are mine. Still undone. The full line of Burell's Top flights (I think!)
A concave and a wedge. I think I shall go with bone on them, eventually!

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I like the look of the white Giraffe bone that is available. The pieces I bought are really dense and white. It is very close in density and look to ivory and doesn't cost a great deal. If properly sealed, it should not show any iron spotting!
They are worth whatever effort you put into them as great shaving razors! Pixelfixed may have a better answer, though!
~Richard