Can someone tell me if this looks like irreversible heat damage?
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Can someone tell me if this looks like irreversible heat damage?
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I'm not an expert but it certainly looks like it.
That's what I am afraid of. Kinda expect that answer. :(
Patina IMO.
Hone it up and you'll find out what is going on with that razor.
15 mins of sanding and no more discoloration. Attachment 131596
I will clean it up and try to hone it. Maybe it isn't brittle. I like the design and look of this guy.
I have seen pretty colors in steel that form simply from time and the elements. While that does look like heat damage (which the colors can be sanded away) is there any signs that the blade has been buffed or ground? if there are no obvious clues, then you have as much chance its just patina as any other reasons.
While at the initial view it does appear to be heat damage, I trust Stefen's (Mainaman's) evaluation and his advice! He's not far from you, I would advise you to send it to him for honing. I've tasted his edges and they are excellent!
Excuse me, but this is the workshop forum, not the good news feel good show. You have made a mistake, as we all did sometime. You learn from it and move on. This is not salvageable. No point in sugarcoating it.
The temper of that razor is shot. Kaput. That is heat damage. And a lot of it. The color progression white ->blue->purple -> bronze ->straw is an unambiguous telltale sign of a piece of steel that has gotten way past tempering. Where it is straw to bronze, the temper will still be ok. purple to blue is still good enough for a pocketknife. And near the edge where it has turned white again, the hardness will be gone.
We're not talking about a razor that has a spec of blue due to a buffing mistake. That blade has gotten hot enough to be used as a brand, along its entire length. The color is on the surface, but the temper will be ruined throughout the entire blade. And it won't be brittle. Quite the opposite in fact. But the edge is nowhere near 60 HRc anymore.
So if you fix up this razor and hone it, please don't sell it here (or anywhere else for that matter) ever, without explaining clearly that the temper was blown. Because otherwise the next person will buy this blade expecting a properly heat treated razor, but getting something that is functionally just a pocket knife.
Btw, you can still see sever rust scarring, but not a trace of rust anymore. I'd be willing to bet dollars to pennies that the blade has been pressed to a buffer by someone who doesn't have a clue.
What a high speed buffer it would have been !!!:rofl2:
I'm not sure how to take you comment. Are you saying I should not have asked about this blade in this forum? And I also don't know how to take your comment about selling the blade. Maybe you have had to deal with many a person with no morals on this forum. If the blade is shot no one else will ever own it. Workshop forum is about restoring blades right? That is what I want to do with it if it is able and that is why I posted it here. Not as a good news feel good show and not for pats on the back. Maybe I am wrong about your tone. If so then my apologies.
Not sure you could get a blade that hot with a buffer,looks like it was held over a flame:(
Well I don't want to get it all clean and pretty and then it not take an edge. I guess I will hone it up now and see. If it does take an edge then I can go back and clean it up.
My post was not a direct reply to yours, but to the people who posted something like 'it might still be allright'. You posted your question in the right place. There is nothing wrong with your question. It's an honest beginners mistake of the kind we all made. It's called a learning process :)
We all bought duds sometime, and I know I destroyed more than 1 razor in the process of learning to restore. Though luckily, never a rare or expensive one.
Your razor is toast. You can restore it in the meaning 'to make it look good' but not in the meaning 'to return it to being a razor. And the main reason I would advise against it is that when you are done, it may look like a razor, but not be usable as one.
The main reason for my remark about selling is because as you've found out, the discoloration is only superficial. Once you sand it off, any evidence that the razor is ruined, will be gone. So whoever ends up with that razor will not know anything is wrong until he starts honing, and finds that a) the razor will cause unusually black slurry (because the metal abrades much faster than normal) and b) it can't hold an edge.
Since you are new to this, you might not have thought about that, and just fix up the blade and sell it. Not because you have no moras, but simply because you might have thought that if the discoloration is gone it might still be ok.
Slurry is one of the telltale signs.
On a razor that is 61 HRc, if you hone on a 1K or 4K, the metal will take a long time to abrade.
So it will take some time for the slurry to turn from clear water to grey.
Otoh, if a blade is say 50 HRc, the same will happen much faster, because it abrades faster.
And of course, a blade that is 50 HRc will not be able to hold a shaveready edge for any significant amount of time, if you can get there at all.
I have to get smart on the metallurgy!
Could the blade be reheated to a degree of cherry red and then be cooled rapidly and then retempered with reasonable expectations of restoring the steel to a useable condition?
If so, would it be benificial to hold it at this temp for awhile before hardening and tempering?
Would repeated hardening tempering cycles harm the metal other than maybe warping or cracking?
I read that it would not work because the metal is too thin at the edge? Again I am new and only repeating what I read. No real experience.
Yes and no.
If it was a big wedge, you could easily anneal it and re-heat treat, temper, and grind it. You'd lose material because the edge would have decarburized, but there would be enough material to start with.
Smaller razors and hollow ground razors, it would be very difficult.
Firstly, you'd lose enough carbon in the edge part to make it unusable.
Now, suppose you'd protect the blade with a thin clay coating or heat treating paint or something else, the quench is still very likely to turn your blade into something that vaguely resembles a ribbed potato chip. or a banana.
Your blade is in the middle. It looks like it is half hollow so it could go either way. It looks a bit thin around the edge but with protection it might just work. Or not. :)
That said, it would be interesting to try. After all, the razor is ruined already, and it looks like it has some material to it. If you'd care to give it a try, un-pin the razor and mail it to me and I'll do it for free, just for curiosity's sake.
Yes, if the heat treater new his stuff and had the right equipment. The primary problem will not be cracking but more than likely with that edge already ground to a shaving edge, the edge will potato chip (a sine wave type of warp). Even with the right equipment, it would contain an element of gambling.
Blade is coming your way! On a side note I opened a case against the seller on eBay. I don't expect to win but maybe it will make his life hell for a while.
I have seen color change on a blade when rinsed with really hot water. Not that kind of discoloration as the OP, razor, but definitely visible.
I have also seen a blade with that kind of discoloration, hollow ground, that had not temper issues.
The thing to do before pronouncing the blade dead based on a pic is to hone it and see if the take edge first.
the exact same colors can result from exposure to an acid. done it many times with a carbon steel knife cutting lemons.
I have never seen a blade turn colors like that from cutting lemons nor from rinsing in the hottest water.If you have seen it many times. lets see some pics.
That Blade is kaput, with the amt of pitting and hone ware, it should be laid to rest.Sometimes the newbs should be told the truth,you bought junk,you got junk.Ask a mentor about a blade you have an interest in via P.M, before buying or bidding,thats what mentors are here for.
Some of the junk newbs buy and post pics of is at times unreal,JMO, sorry for the rant.
don't get your panties in a bunch. I have seen carbon steel turn the same colors as if by heat, but from cutting lemons. I thought it was interesting, enough to notice and remember but not enough to take a picture. I'm not saying that that is what the OP has going on with his razor, just that those oxide colors can result from more than one source. I would sure have liked to see a pic of the back before he polished it.
if it were mine, and I thought it was worth salvaging, I'd have honed it and counted the shaves it gave before going dull, then made the decision how to proceed.
My pantys are not in a bunch,I just know junk when I see it,the blade is heat damaged,the blade is not worth saving,the blade is not worth spending 50 bux to send to out of the country and back,if for educational purposes?? so be it.It may be a great blade someday,but chances are it will be nothing more than a box cutter,JMO,it may be a great slicer of lemons,we shall see.
I guess you were born with a razor in your hand? I suppose you have never been a "noob" or bought a bad blade by accident. Thanks for the encouraging words though. You are my kind of mentor to make new people feel so welcome. Thanks a lot. You should expect people to line up to ask you about blades any time now.
I am going to close this thread for 24 hours and give everyone time to cool off a bit...
Glen - Senior Mod SRP
I have seen some of those colors develop on kitchen knives. Orange and blue. Potatos can do funny things to blank carbon steel. So in a way, 'color' can have multiple reasons. The telltale in this case is the pattern. The colors are progressing in a standard progression from blue to straw. The colors also progress more or less symmetrically from a central location.
Those 2 things together are proof enough that this is heat damage with a typical pattern, instead of the pseudo random pattern of discolorations that could be acid based.
Bruno, it is headed your way. $12 to ship so not too bad. I appreciate the effort either way.
No problem. I'll update this thread with pics when I am giving it a go.
I thought folks might like to know that eBay has resolved the case that I opened against the seller of this blade in my favor. I had asked for at least a 50% refund of my purchase price but they are refunding the entire purchase price! Wow. I didn't expect to win the case. I just wanted to cause enough butt pain to the seller to try and keep him from doing this again.