Paper testing razors

Jimmy, your father was a genius. Now I have 4 pocket knives to re-hone...

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Please, if you are going to promote a method, then make it available for testing. That is, tell me exactly how you do it. What specific paper? What angle of approach to the paper? What depth of cut? What else?

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Ron,

My approach to trying the method was starting with a dull razor (if the razor is shave ready and you going to dull it for the test, it's kind of fun to cut some phone book paper with it sharp first) glass the razor if it's not dull, start setting the bevel and when you feel that parts but not all of the blade are coming into being set, cut some phone book paper with a slicing cut so that you start the cut at the heel and finish at the toe, you should be able to feel the areas where the bevel is there and where it is not, now do what ever testing method you usually do and see if both tests correlate. As I said, I will likely not use this test again as it duplicates info that I already get with my TNT, but I did get good correlation with it.

Edit; Don't forget to do some more strokes on your bevel setter to repair the damage done by the test before moving on.

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

Send her to me Pixel, I'll clean her up,,,,,,:beer2:

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Not a her John,is an old he:)

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Originally Posted by Steel

Beautiful knives there and that's a GREAT idea. Good thing your father didn't listen to all the nay Sayers. I have seen many blades honed into the tang. Not pretty. Sometimes you never know until you try.

are those Texas toothpicks?

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:OT

Those are Case 61048 pattern, also known as the 'Dixie Switch', or the 'farmer's knife'. The 6 designating a bone scale, the 1 a single blade, and the 048 is the pattern. I was a young ironworker in my late teens when an old timer pulled one out and started peeling a peach. He just flipped the blade open with his thumb and started peeling. I went and got one and have been carrying one or another or the 048 pattern since then. Here are some I've picked up over the years, along with some 62048s (2 blades, same pattern) The one that Pixelfixed showed, that belonged to his grandfather, is a 5254 trapper pattern. The 5 designating genuine stag, the 2 for 2 blades and the 54 is the pattern #.

Attachment 191925Attachment 191926Attachment 191927Attachment 191928Attachment 191929

Jim ,do you know any knife resto people?, may want to send the above out to be done.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Jim ,do you know any knife resto people?, may want to send the above out to be done.

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Sorry Bill I don't. If it was me I wouldn't want to change a thing on it.

The notch on a knife blade is properly termed a Spanish Notch. There are quite a few variations. Practically, as noted, it simply ends the edge for sharpening. There are other historical myths too, the truth is probably lost. They get in the way when cutting cordage.

Ok, so it is 2am again. I know many of you have no interest in the pics below. Most here know that beyond bevel set there is little need for testing.

Disclaimer: Not everyone can do this, including many well experienced honers. It has the potential to roll an edge. You may need two more passes on your bevel setter if you attempt this after setting bevel. This is not posted here to belittle any edge test method, nor to promote this one. It is posted here because a number of people here have professed a belief that it cannot be done. Actually some have professed that as being fact.

The below pics were taken at 500X. I marked the edge with a red paint pen to be able to get the same section of edge. the approximate width of the pics is 1mm. I only shave about half of the face that most do. I will attempt to mark each as I go, but they will be posted in this order
shave ready edge
after single paper cut
after 3 cuts
after 5 cuts
after shave
after 5 more cuts
cheek after shave
edge of sliced paper
factory paper edge
pic of type of paper cut and scraps.

shave ready edge
Attachment 191974
after single paper cut
Attachment 191975
after 3 cuts
Attachment 191976
after 5 cuts
Attachment 191977
after shave
Attachment 191978
after 5 more cuts
Attachment 191979
me, first cheek finish
Attachment 191980
edge of cut paper
Attachment 191981
factory edge of paper
Attachment 191982
paper I use, and scraps
Attachment 191983

Any Questions?

Forgot to mention. Note that paint has gradually worn away. Paper is abrasive. Glad my steel was harder than my paper.
Cheers

Well done, I liked the post with information and the pictures. From time to time, and especially when honing a razor for the first time, I use the same method with paper

Thanks for posting the pics. I'm not sure you aren't getting some damage there. The photos show a darker spot near the edge where you are cutting the paper even after the single cut. Doing the math and using the scale from the electron microscope photo, his damage looked to be about 3-4 microns from top to bottom - on your 500x scope that would work out to ballpark .059" - .078" in your image if it was the same size as his. That dark spot at the edge sure looks pretty close to that, even in the first photo of the single paper cut. You may well just be repairing the edge enough by stropping post-paper-cutting to get a shaveable edge. I think it's not possible to say for sure at that level of magnification though.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

Thanks for posting the pics. I'm not sure you aren't getting some damage there. The photos show a darker spot near the edge where you are cutting the paper even after the single cut. Doing the math and using the scale from the electron microscope photo, his damage looked to be about 3-4 microns from top to bottom - on your 500x scope that would work out to ballpark .059" - .078" in your image if it was the same size as his. That dark spot at the edge sure looks pretty close to that, even in the first photo of the single paper cut. You may well just be repairing the edge enough by stropping post-paper-cutting to get a shaveable edge. I think it's not possible to say for sure at that level of magnification though.

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Thank you for your observation. I am not sure I see the spot you mention but I do see a spot slightly below the edge, very near the paint. It doesn't seem to reach the edge? The red paint was to help me get the same spot, but as it wore away actually caused me to move the razor to the right. If you notice in the first pic after a cut, there at two small x's caused by glare, in the V left when paint was lost. Those x's can be followed thru the pics to better judge a single spot from one pic to the next. I expect if any stropping had been done Changed them to some degree. You may also notice that the pic from after the shave seems a little dull. I can only assume my very light wiping did not remove all soap film, but by the last edge pic, after 5 more cuts, the entire bevel seems much cleaner.

You will notice I did not attempt to evaluate the pics before. Figured I would leave that to viewers. But, I thought I did mention, and now realize I did not, NO stropping was done anywhere in this process. The shave after 5 cuts was delightful, but I could tell at the end of the last 5 cuts, another shave would not fair as well without stropping.
Thanks, Cheers

Yeah, as I noted, it's pretty tough to tell at this magnification level. The reflection of the edge near the apex looks different to me from the first shave ready shot and the post-paper shots afterward. And that's about all we have to judge the damage at that scale. Now whether that's actually edge damage or just lighting I can't say - that's why I mentioned lighting previously. Regardless, if you got a shave after the paper cutting without stropping the damage isn't catastrophic. If you'd say you couldn't do more than that little bit of shaving though without stropping, there definitely was some damage done. I would still recommend folks should be hesitant to try that after bevel set, lol.

Would say that the edge looks pretty impressive considering 500x, straight shiny line

The best way to check for edge damage at this magnification would probably be to use dark field illumination - an easy way is to use an external light source that's fairly linear like an LED flashlight with a focused beam and shine it almost directly at the edge. Then tweak the angle and position of the flashlight until you get the reflection of the very apex lit up but most of the rest of the bevel and razor fairly dark.

Out of curiosity what was your progression on this razor also bigeasy?

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Originally Posted by eKretz

Yeah, as I noted, it's pretty tough to tell at this magnification level. The reflection of the edge near the apex looks different to me from the first shave ready shot and the post-paper shots afterward. And that's about all we have to judge the damage at that scale. Now whether that's actually edge damage or just lighting I can't say - that's why I mentioned lighting previously. Regardless, if you got a shave after the paper cutting without stropping the damage isn't catastrophic. If you'd say you couldn't do more than that little bit of shaving though without stropping, there definitely was some damage done. I would still recommend folks should be hesitant to try that after bevel set, lol.

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Yes, interpretations of high magnification pictures can run the gamut. A change in lighting can change the entire appearance. For instance, in Mr Onimaru5's 200x pictures on page 3, show more coarseness of the bevel, than the 5K pics you mention. My 500x pics show larger peaks and valleys than his. Yet one would think that the 5K pics would show extreme peaks and valleys, and yet for all practical purposes, there are none. My judgment of that pic tells me the edge was finished way beyond what any of us would ever do. I traced the source of the pic. It is a free blog. I could not find any reference to the 'scientist' making the interpretations. I have only tried 'bond' paper a couple of times because it is much heavier than notepad paper and dulls much quicker. There are thinner papers than notepad, but most, if produced for writing, would have a hard finish applied.

I agree that no one should jump right into this and think it can be done with a few razors worth of experience. With experience, they might venture beyond the bevel set, and my statements and pics only demonstrate what is possible. As mentioned before, there were potholes along the way There were a few rolled edges. Very few, not to the degree shown in the 5kx pics, to my knowledge, and nothing more than could be corrected with 20 laps at 8K.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

The best way to check for edge damage at this magnification would probably be to use dark field illumination - an easy way is to use an external light source that's fairly linear like an LED flashlight with a focused beam and shine it almost directly at the edge. Then tweak the angle and position of the flashlight until you get the reflection of the very apex lit up but most of the rest of the bevel and razor fairly dark.

Out of curiosity what was your progression on this razor also bigeasy?

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I have never tried your suggestion but can see how it might make edge damage more obvious. I believe most of the edge is visible in most of the pics, but some may not realize we are talking about that last tiny bit.

Finished on the Roccia stone that the original thread was about. I do not hone for full polish on the bevel, my focus is on the edge. It was stropped on 'firehose' type cloth, about 40-50 laps, relatively fast. One cut to ensure my satisfaction that I had reached my goal.

Hi res photos never were something I paid much attention to. As I told Sham, above 40x my honing goes to hell. For me it is how smooth the razor feels on my face, and how efficiently it slices the whiskers. The TNT, TPT, and finally, my own personal version of HHT tell me all I need in terms of tests.

Perhaps cutting paper as an alternative won't do any harm, but I cannot imagine it will do the edge any good. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Perhaps cutting paper as an alternative won't do any harm, but I cannot imagine it will do the edge any good.

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Sorry, Jimmy, but that is true for any test.

The tests are all for evaluation only, not for improvement. IF the paper does not harm the edge, then well, whatever, I guess.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Hi res photos never were something I paid much attention to. As I told Sham, above 40x my honing goes to hell. For me it is how smooth the razor feels on my face, and how efficiently it slices the whiskers. The TNT, TPT, and finally, my own personal version of HHT tell me all I need in terms of tests.

Perhaps cutting paper as an alternative won't do any harm, but I cannot imagine it will do the edge any good. :shrug:

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Agree completely. Anyone who has an established routine and gets good results would not be interested in spending a lot of time learning something new. I can't off hand think of any test that would actually help the edge. I can imagine the damage could be done with HHT, but not a likely or as severe as possible with the paper. I can also imagine blood dripping from a first timers attempt at tpt.
Cheers

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Sorry, Jimmy, but that is true for any test.

The tests are all for evaluation only, not for improvement. IF the paper does not harm the edge, then well, whatever, I guess.

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Ron, IMHO, the TPT, or the HHT, will not degrade the edge. As for the TNT, I've seen many barbers I spoke with use it on their own razors when I spoke with them about them.

I haven't experimented with doing a TNT with a shave ready blade, and then shave. A barber I asked said that nails and hair are made of the same thing. Hence the TNT shouldn't hurt the edge if done with the weight of the blade. Dunno, and I'm not curious enough to shave with one to find out. :D

I have never said it wont do any harm. But for my purposes, the information from the results outweighs the minor damage. I believe my progression of pictures demonstrates that damage need not be catastrophic. After 10 cuts and 1/2 shave (I have a beard) the razor would have needed another minute on the cloth strop. The last series of 5 cuts, had no discernable roughness, but did have a little drag.
Thanks,
Cheers

I'm not so sure that's 500x but here is the chip that was described earlier. Wasn't there 5 papercuts ago.
Proof enough for me that it's a destructive test & wouldn't be bothered with it .
I've zoomed into your pic so it's a bit blurry.

I questioned the 500x also. On my screen the original pictures bevel reveal is about 1", which would be a .002" bevel reveal on the razor. About 1 order of magnitude too small.

Somebody please help me choose the right notepad to to work into my routine, between my Norton 8K & my PHIG,,,:shrug:

I spent a hour & a half in the Wal Mart trying to choose a notepad & before I could choose one , the security grabbed me & accused me of trying to shoplift. I tried to explain to him I needed notepads to test the edge of my Philly. He thought I was referring to my Willy & dragged me to the security room. They called the cops & when they showed up, security told them I was shoplifting notepads & playing with my Willy. Before I could explain myself the cops frisked me & found my G-19, two EDC knives, flashlight, 2 firestarters, a C.A.T. ( combat application tourniquet), a little bit of cash , but not enough to pay for all those notepads I was holding.

Attachment 192120

After 2 hours of having my rights violated , I was lucky that I had my cellphone on me that had photos of my Philly & no photos of my Willy. I also had photos of my 8k & my PHIG.

I always knew honing would get me in trouble,,,,,,:(

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

I'm not so sure that's 500x but here is the chip that was described earlier. Wasn't there 5 papercuts ago.
Proof enough for me that it's a destructive test & wouldn't be bothered with it .
I've zoomed into your pic so it's a bit blurry.

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Thanks, even blurred, still easier to see with enlarging. As to magnification, I can only tell you what the scope indicates to me. I did say it was a cheap scope. The picture you have posted is the last of the edge pics, and taken after 5 paper cuts, shave, and 5 additional paper cuts. It does not show after the shave, so would have been acquired somewhere in the last 5 cuts. I thought the original reference to a spot was on the first cut from shave ready. Still a far cry better than many were stating as fact, prior to these posts. IMHO. Most razor edges do weaken with use. I was expecting damage to be visible at some point.
It makes no difference to me what anyone choses to use or not use in his quest for a sharp edge. I originally mentioned my method as just my method, and a possible alternative, as part of another discussion. I have never denied that it is destructive to some point. But when I say it works for me, and others state as a matter of fact, that it does not work, that leaves me as being a liar, if I do not defend my method, and my integrity. That defense may easily be taken as pushing my method. As almost anything else, each method has advantages and disadvantages, it is up to the user to weigh for himself.

Hirlau:
"Somebody please help me choose the right notepad to to work into my routine, between my Norton 8K & my PHIG,,,

I spent a hour & a half in the Wal Mart trying to choose a notepad & before I could choose one , the security grabbed me & accused me of trying to shoplift. I tried to explain to him I needed notepads to test the edge of my Philly. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"

Top left. The red, green, and blue, with wire, will only leave a bigger mess. The others,,, you're on your own

With all due respect,
I'm surprised security and police did not believe such a sweet face :rofl2:

Just a little humor my friend,,, hone as you please,,,,:angel:

Oh,,,,, I get it now. It's my avatar, username, and tag line, that make me look so 'easy'

Perhaps if I could find something like onimaru55's?

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

Just a little humor my friend,,, hone as you please,,,,:angel:

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Was taken as such. Thanks

Take my advice,,, never be fooled by an avatar,,,,,,,,,:)

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

Take my advice,,, never be fooled by an avatar,,,,,,,,,:)

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That's right i know your avatar is a double bluff and you really are a 12 year old :)

So? Do I get a pass now? Free to discus how cutting paper will instantly notify one of a wire edge, or help to identify a razor with a geometry that produces an edge which is too narrow, or find newly developed chips before getting to the test shave? I know there were detractors that have not posted since the picture progression I posted. Doesn't mean they haven't been here. I know there could be others that would instantly get ruffled if I say 'cut paper'.

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Originally Posted by bigeasy1

So? Do I get a pass now? Free to discus how cutting paper will instantly notify one of a wire edge, or help to identify a razor with a geometry that produces an edge which is too narrow, or find newly developed chips before getting to the test shave? I know there were detractors that have not posted since the picture progression I posted. Doesn't mean they haven't been here. I know there could be others that would instantly get ruffled if I say 'cut paper'.

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I personally use the thumb nail test during bevel set so you'll hear nothing off putting from me.cheers bigeasy1 and happy shaving friend .:)

No pass required. Unlike the accusations of some, this place is not a union of yes-men. Civil disagreement makes for more more informative discussions in my opinion.

Thanks Gents

I know there is a possibility of newbies grabbing some of my comments, and damaging a few razors, and possibly even writing elsewhere "Well I read it on SRP".

Maybe it would help if I added "Caution! Paper cutter! Methods could be dangerous and destructive to your razor" at the lead of my signature line.

Any thoughts?
Cheers

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Originally Posted by bigeasy1

Maybe it would help if I added "Caution! Paper cutter! Methods could be dangerous and destructive to your razor" at the lead of my signature line.

Any thoughts?

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Ummm. I have mixed thoughts about it. On one hand it might be good to have that warning to the unenlightened. On the other hand that seems like an unreasonable label to have attached to you, as I assume you have greater depth of knowledge beyond paper cutting.

I'm torn. Not cut, torn.

It might be easier to ban you.
:)

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Ummm. I have mixed thoughts about it. On one hand it might be good to have that warning to the unenlightened. On the other hand that seems like an unreasonable label to have attached to you, as I assume you have greater depth of knowledge beyond paper cutting.

I'm torn. Not cut, torn.

It might be easier to ban you.
:)

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No, I'm not looking for that :(

Thanks.
I did look at my signature line and decide it may be taken as too presumptuous, and added a little.
I hope your comment of "greater depth' is true. But, I do have a tendency to mention paper cutting when presented with a problem that paper cutting may assist with. As it is what got me into this ruckus. Similar disturbances would only serve to detract from other useful and informative conversations. Holding back information I have that may assist, is not easy.
Cheers

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Originally Posted by Slurryer

Here's my thing everyone. We're here to share information. A hundred smilliar opinions is not very informative. There's just as much value in a technique that has negative results as a technique that has positive results. You learn something from both. I'm just as interested in learning what doesn't work as what does, and the reasons why. bigeasy1 has a technique that works for him. I want to understand why it works for him. Then I want to learn why it does or does not work for me. What are the things I should consider doing it this way, or do the con's out way the pro's. Or is there any benefit at all to this technique? Learning the pro's and con's is part of the process. I'm not looking for the holy grail of honing. Just some info on one man's technique, and how it's working for him. I'm a fairly smart guy. I'll figure out where this fits in the scheme of things through the opinions here, and my own personal experience.

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I did not get to properly address this at the time. If you will go back a couple of pages from here, to the pics, I hope I have given enough information to decide whether you would like to continue to investigate paper cutting or not. If you decide to continue, please post some comments along the way, positive or negative. Negative will help me to remember more of the potholes that are to faced along the way, and tell others as well. Will also give me an opportunity to explain how to avoid a problem, if I know.

This past week is probably the most time and effort I have put into the forum in the four years I have been a member. I stay very busy. But, I will try to make the time to answer questions. May just take me a day or so.
Cheers

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

I was treating the paper cutting as a bevel set test and like another bevel set test that I do, the TNT, I assumed that it was a slightly destructive test. As such I did not use it above the 1k level.

Before dulling the razor for re honing I did slice a little paper with the razor in just off of shave ready condition.
That was pretty impressive.

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This actually may be a good starting point for most. A sharp edge you are going to reset the bevel on anyway. If you had continued the cutting, you may very well have created the bur so dreaded here, or may have gotten far enough to realize after 10-12 cuts, the blade did not cut as slickly, with a little more drag, and possibly a little more noise, as the paper tore more and cut less. Continued cutting from that point would have eventually created a few chips, and it may have become more difficult to drag the razor through the paper. Not exactly the reverse of the normal progression of bevel set to fine edge, as there are no striations from the progression of stones, but enough to give you some feel, and realize the difference. Assuming your bevel set got rid of all other imperfections, cuts will start without the chips that were so obvious coming from the other direction, and the cuts will b a little smoother, but noisy. They will approach the first cuts you did with a good edge, as the progression moves along. If you suddenly get a very rough and noisy cut, you have a wire edge, or bur, possibly caused by getting side pressure from the paper while making your last cut. A pothole.
Cheers,