,,,,,,,:rofl2: all it does is, pi$$ people off before they go to bed,,,,:roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
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,,,,,,,:rofl2: all it does is, pi$$ people off before they go to bed,,,,:roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I'm confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeasy1
On the rare occasion when I do a thumbnail test, I hardly ever need to do more than one pass to assess the edge. Sometimes I might repeat it once if I was not sure about what I sensed the first time.
Now, since the paper test is done to assess the edge as well, why would you repeat it so many times? What do you learn from the twelfth cut that you could not learn from the first?
I would not normally make twelve cuts. One is usually sufficient. This was only a suggestion of learning more from attempting the test before resetting a bevel. Stating with a good edge, it will slowly deteriorate, with enough of cutting anything. Notice the changes while it deteriorates. This will be similar to the differences you can detect while using the test, one at a time, from the beginning. Except the changes will be from rougher to smoother, instead of backwards from that. Then go on to setting the bevel as usual, no real harm done. Just a few minutes used to acquaint yourself to how the paper cutting may help, and its rate of damage to an edge. Naturally with chips, much faster damage to the edge will occur. The norm would be starting from the bevel set with no chips, and continuing that way. At the first indication of any chip, past bevel setting, I get rid of the chip before going any farther. With use and experience, I find the paper cutting will find a chip much earlier than any thing else short of a microscope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Got it. Thanks.
Since I have a couple of great microscopes, I doubt I will do much with this but I will try it a bit just to better understand it.
Let me try again:
An earlier post from bluesman7, who was getting ready to reset the bevel and hone a razor, ended with
"Before dulling the razor for re honing I did slice a little paper with the razor in just off of shave ready condition.
That was pretty impressive."
I took "pretty impressive" as meaning he got a smooth slick cut. Certainly not the same as he will get after the bevel is set. I realized that with the intention of setting the bevel anyway, he could have learned more by pushing the envelope. He could have made more cuts, to see if he could detect from the paper, the damage that was accumulating from continued cuts. This would just have been an experiment and possibly learning thing. Since he was about to reset the bevel anyone, no harm done by a few very small chips. The experiment would have shown that the paper cutting does cause damage, but also that the changes can re realized is it accumulates. I normal use, rarely would more than one of two cuts would be used. But let us say that when you thought you were done with bevel set, you made a paper cut that gave a small tick sound from one spot, sounding different than the rest of the edge. That is probably a tiny chip, and you will save time to get rid of it now rather than later. A few more passes on the bevel set stone, and another test.
Learn to get the most from your senses when using paper. If you were watching closely as you made the afore mentioned cut, you would have a very good idea where the chip was. If there was no chip, but a small frown, the razor may have skipped over the frown part without cutting, but may not have changed feel or noise level. If you were watching closely, you would see where it skipped over, and would realize the stone was noting getting to the edge from both sides at that point. Not only can it find points, it may find that everything is good until getting to a section of the edge, Too much pressure toward one end could be causing some chipping from the pressure. ??????? Lots of possibilities.
:confused: Or keep them up much later than they would have intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
In which case, it may turn out nothing they write makes any sense
I don't know about lots of possibilities but between honing with diamond plates & paper cutting, I think chips will be more of a reality for you than for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeasy1
You'll notice not a single experienced razor honer on this forum agrees with your methods.
You can call it conspiracy theory if you wish but there is a lot of accumulated knowledge here on razors alone not just knives.
Sometimes it's easier to ride the horse where its nose is pointed.
Good luck with your experimenting.
I totally get what you are suggesting here and in retrospect I should have done just that.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeasy1
I have a honing partner and we are often dulling edges re honing and mailing the razors to each other for assessment, so I'll have more chances to do this. I will be able to correlate the damage I sense with the cutting with what I see with my microscope. I don't expect to ever really use this test, but I don't mind learning more about it, and since I'll be dulling the edges anyway I may as well gain the experience. I will be doing my best to not damage the edge, just the way you would use it on the way towards shave ready.
I don't think you need to add any warnings to your signature, this thread is full of them, and a dull razor is not really the end of the world. Presumably anyone using this test would already have a dull razor.
I think the powers to be have spoken, and the thread is likely ending soon anyway. I don't know what you and blistersteel use for testing, and as mentioned several times before this point, many eventually use very little if any testing. It is a very subjective thing, and when everything is going well, little will be learned other than improvement from last test, and possibly nothing unexpected is going on. For anyone interested, it has all of the possible abilities mentioned previously. Up to each of us what we decide to use or work at in the pursuit for consistently finer shaves. Thanks for your patience and sticking around this long. I will hang around a bit to see if anyone has serious questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesman7
Cheers,
Though I have not seen a benefit from your procedure with paper & have had a little humor at it's existence,,,I don't see why it would be closed up to this point. You have hinted at this outcome, a few times before in this thread. You have detailed/presented your procedure without making it a requirement, this IMO has been the key to this thread's existence. I have no say so in a threads success, so take these words as strictly my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeasy1
Procedures like yours will always run the gauntlet here. SRP is a place, if not the place, where beginners come to learn how to maintain their razors. Ideas are closely examined due to the success/fail ratio of beginners trying to hone. Frankly put, if your procedure is going to make the job of beginners learning to hone more difficult & the procedure is void of substantiated facts; then the thread is probably doomed.
It's not a personal thing,,, "my procedure is better than yours",,,,, it's fact over fiction.
I am late to this discussion and my comment may be of little value. The lack of objectivity in testing has already been mentioned. A contrary positive is that the testing mentioned falls within measurements that have been traditional for razors probably since the days of early manufacture, e.g. personal subjective judgement and the "feel" of the user. I suspect there is a much stronger volume of measurement via touch/shave than there is for using paper to test razors.
Here is a thread from a site known for better than average objectivity about their products and an author known for a mild obsession with objective testing and a good sense of statistical analysis. Spyderco Forums • View topic - Edge retention slicing cardboard (15 dps, x-coarse DMT)
With the exception that the paper material being discussed is cardboard and that the blades are knives, there are very valid principles of analysis and the discussion of several variables that can readily transfer to this discussion. If anyone is interested...
From this external thread's perspective the paper variable is the greatest threat to the argument for testing with it unless multiple cuts are made, at a volume that becomes prohibitive, or specially calibrated paper is used for multiples of cuts. In the end, the paper is the limiting variable, not the edge, as Oz has noted with his report of different edges shaving well. The Spyderco thread reinforces the notion that paper cutting is damaging, not enhancing to a blade's edge. It also discusses the bias that creep into any such analysis no matter how well intended.
This thread need not close as there is more to learn. The question remains if the length and rigor of such study is practical when the methods advocated here are not broken.
Thank you for your comments, and the link. The information on the link is very interesting. I did not find much correlation. As the writer notes, he used any cardboard he could find, and his testing was for much different purposes. About the only real correlation I could find that was sharp steel instruments were the subjects of the tests, and a paper products was used as the test medium. I use paper I buy. About as consistent, convenient size, and proper thickness for the intended use as I have found. He used any used cardboard he could find, and didn't say if he attempted to check moisture content. He tested to compare steels, and I test to check progress of the honing progression, and am simply looking for improvement of the test results along the way. My testing is totally subjective, and not as useful for someone very new to the test, other than the difference between the test results for 600 grit and 10,000 grit are as obvious as night and day. Differences of 20-30 laps on a given stone may not be so obvious, with much less experience. You mention multiple cuts needed for the test, but my tests use one cut at a time, at different spots in the progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Blue
It has been pointed out here, and I completely agree, that many of us have little need for testing beyond 1K. My original statement was to a new honer, and that was probably my biggest mistake. My test is evidently not so easy to perform and get usable results from as I had assumed. The newbie was looking for 'easy' and this evidently does not fit that description.
For most people here, the time and effort to acquire the necessary experience to get a lot from my tests, is probably not worth the effort. It may be more useful for someone testing lots of stones, as an initial indication, but even that would be questionable.
Thanks again,
Cheers,
No problem. I appreciate that you followed the link. Rather than focus on individual variables like test conditions, the type of material and the steels, I suggest taking a wider view of how Cliff describes the process. In the end, his point is investigational bias and how it can result in Type 1 or Type 2 errors and how the investigator can come to an entirely unlooked for conclusion when bias is addressed, as he did when he found himself testing paper and not steels.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeasy1
I can apply this doctrine to both sides of this discussion. There are a number of threats to validity that appear in both places. The balance shifts, however, in favor of the larger sample size represented by the study group here. This is not to say that your perspective does not have a place, it's simply a matter of addressing biases and the threats to validity in your supposition. There is still a lot to learn.
Time will answer a lot of questions. It's really too bad that you have raised a portion of the discussion that may have already been beaten to death a hundred years ago, or more, but that information lost to history. Now you're left in a position to prove your point and limited references except those in your own shop. Keep good notes so it doesn't get lost again.
I think just keeping the perspective that the test is a subjective, probing test takes a lot of the importance of the materials away. I use the HHT and that has similar issues with the hair being used. I have three distinct types of hair from the same lock of my hair that I use and calibrate my expected results to each type of hair. It is not an objective test, but I still find it useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Blue
When typing in long posts, please use paragraphs. That makes it much easier to read.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeasy1
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
My bad. I agree, it does make for easier reading and understanding.
Thanks. As you mention, this has probably been beat to death over a long period of time. I would think that it would be exceedingly difficult to devise a completely scientific, objective test, to search for a subjective result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Blue
Although it is important in any test to consider all of the variables, I am not certain that could be done, considering the dozens if not more, variables that will effect the final ultimate test, which is subjective only. I have attempted to keep my medium as consistent as possible, but things such as consistency of angle of approach, pressure, blade intersecting angle to the medium, speed of the cut have to be considered as well.
I suppose a very sensitive sound meter could be used to detect sound variation in individual test cuts, but that is only one of the results giving feedback to the user, and that test would not be used by the layman. It could only prove that there is some validity to the mention that the sound changes. Anyone could prove this to himself simply by listening while making a cut.
But, the principles of scientific testing are still very important. For most consistent results, one must consider the possible variables and ensure that each is handled as consistently as possible. They don't have to be the same as the next guy uses, but do need to become consistent for the individual using the test. This applies to honing and shaving as well. It is best to develop some technique that works for the user, before experimenting with variations such as different shave prep, or a new style of hone.
Mike Blue:
"Time will answer a lot of questions. It's really too bad that you have raised a portion of the discussion that may have already been beaten to death a hundred years ago, or more, but that information lost to history. Now you're left in a position to prove your point and limited references except those in your own shop. Keep good notes so it doesn't get lost again. "
My original point was that cutting paper to check the progress of honing, works for me, without destroying the edge. After enough flaming, my point became, and was never intended for more than to prove the nay sayers shouting "that will destroy the edge" wrong.
I do not have the time, inclination, training, or equipment to prove much of anything beyond that. I do appreciate all of the comments here, and will be around to see what develops and attempt to answer any questions that may be aimed at me.
Thanks
Touched up that razor in the picks tonight. Well, actually just 40 fast laps on the cloth strop.
Shaved so nice, I had to look in the mirror close and run my fingers over my cheek to make sure it did its job. Still has the paint on it, may have to look to see if stropping got that chip out. If not, didn't bother the shave any, after stropping of course.
Cheers,
There seems to have been a number of readers, but no posters. Certainly others have had some experience here? Well, I honed the razor below this past Sunday, using my normal methods. I thought a little "eye candy" might tempt a few to post. I read in an older thread here that the George Brittain razors were made about 1820-30. One poster asked if they shave good and another answered not good enough to justify the price at the time. Guess a great many things a relative. My finishing honing was with the la roccia stone until I could find no further improvement of the edge, and then followed 40-45 fast laps on cloth, flowed by a single test cut. The first two swipes were as good as it gets. Smooth, no drag, no sound, no feel, as though someone had rounded the edge, but closer look in the mirror revealed nothing but smooth soft skin. The owner did not mind my test methods. This is the first GB I have touched, and only did the two swipes, so have no idea how well it holds an edge, but it certainly took a very fine edge fairly easily.
Enjoy!
Attachment 193296
Attachment 193297
Attachment 193299
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Attachment 193300
She's a beautiful razor & I like the art work, nice scrim,,,, I believe ??
There is a lot of experience here, as you know,,,, just not as many as you would like, that test with paper. :shrug:
Most who start here , learn & stick with the methods preached & demonstrated here by members who have perfected them,,,,,why?,,,, the methods work. Your dedication to the paper test method must be commended AFAIC,,, you hang in here like a Trooper, without losing it.
I'm happy, that your happy, with your edges.
nice razor there bigeasy1 .cam.
Thank you Cam, John.
The owner was expecting the mammoth ivory. The scrim was lagniappe. The owner had done most of the work on the blade. I just added a little polish and patina. The wedge is re-constituted amber. The shave was a partially unexpected treat for both of us.
I am not a big proponent of so many of this and so many of that. I prefer to let the blade tell me, or in some cases the material. I do have a method of stropping on cloth that produces a very special edge on most full hollows within 40-50 fast laps, but rarely try it on beefier blades. It worked great on this one. I have a number of leather, cloth, and pasted strops at my bench, and another set hanging on the inside of the bathroom door. I typically use 20 or fewer laps at a time, and test. Making scales, I never use precut patterns, but lay each blade on a piece of paper and draw a pattern around it. I do make sure the outer perimeter matches, but free hand the shape, with them held together, a little at a time, using finer methods of material removal as I go.
I noticed before honing that the blade seemed a little thin near the center section. Honing the razor, my test methods indicated the edge was a too thin in that area. I honed beyond the initial bevel set on 1k waterstone, until I could tell that the center section was better supported before progressing.
This was probably not the best thread to show off the razor, but seemed appropriate at the time.
Thanks again for you comments and interest,
Al
Just a little aside, that some may find amusing.
I sometimes tell younger shavers that some blades talk to me. They sometimes look at me like I am nuts! Tell them, some constantly threaten to cut my throat. Others may whisper in my ear "go ahead, you can speed up, I'm not gong to hurt your".
Cheers.
Easy, do you shave ATG or only WTG? I find that I can shave fairly comfortably WTG with an edge that is quite rough to shave with ATG.
I shave in all directions, ATG, WTG, and XTG. Not to say I do three totally separate passes. I shave with my right hand only, and cannot shave the left side in quite the manner I shave the right side. On the left cheek, I have a little pocket that develops below the outside corner of my eye, below the bone under the eye. I have to go back to get that ATG, in which direction the pocket doesn't form.Quote:
Originally Posted by eKretz
Rough is subjective. A scratchy edge would normally be scratchy everywhere. Rough only AGT would indicate to me that the edge is not keen enough, and actually probably would not give as close of a shave anywhere on the face, but may seem smoother as it cuts through the whiskers at more of an angle. This could also be an indication of insufficient prep, but I am assuming that was ruled out.
Your second sentence opens up the entire realm of what is a good shave and what edge characteristics contribute to it. We could duplicate 1/2 of SRP with that.
Without getting into a lengthy discussion, I could give you a list of points that I believe contribute to the most shavable edges. Most of it has been confirmed by test shaves of other shavers, without telling them what I changed, until after their test. Much of it may or may not be duplicated on other parts of SRP. But I find that tests attempted by someone by email or forum may not be as objective, as the methods may rub them right or wrong. My main objective is the best shaves I can reproduce.
Yes, that was my point. Some edges can be shaved with WTG and you'd never really notice the slight amount of damage that would cause trouble ATG. Good edges should do fine ATG. I was just curious as you mention only making two swipes with a razor, which to me would imply that you are only shaving WTG and might not notice even if there were any slight damage from the paper testing. That was a pretty sweet razor on the last page, has a bit of old-world charm with the scrimshaw look.
I guess I might have explained that better. I understand your point, and the impression you got. Your impression was correct, and the implication might most often be correct as well. I am not new to this. What you suggest might be possible, and even likely with some edges, but this razor shaved so smooth, effortlessly, and close, I did not want to risk any damage by shaving further. I wanted the owner to feel what I felt. Here is a quote from the owner. He has a back problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by eKretz
"Woke up from the pain. Happens a lot. But I can still feel that cool tingle of rum on my face. What a great shave Al! You used the word "luxurious" and you were right. That was a rounded edge! I had that feeling that I just could NOT cut myself no matter what. I love the big blades--and your edges. That truly was a sweet shave."
I have a method of stropping, on a particular cloth, that seems to tend to burnish the edge. Once done, there is some indication that the edge is a little tougher than normal, and the feel is more than reassuring. It may be described as feeling as though the edge is not a tightly angled edge at all. ?
Thank you for the compliments on the razor. The owner agrees, and then some.
Again, the paper cutting does cause damage. It probably takes at least as long to learn it as learning to shave first did. With experience one gets better. Does it cause enough damage with one cut to degrade the shave? I don't believe that it necessarily does. Does that mean you can do it tonight? Probably not.
Cheers
I believe I have seen that particular stropping method described before, something with Fire in it or something? It strikes me as a possible burnishing effect perhaps.
I believe you're quite correct that one or two paper cuts won't damage the edge too bad. Stropping afterwards probably negates most of it, so as is often said for differing preferences or methods, YMMV. I don't have a problem with your method if it works for you. It seems as though you have your system down in a way that works well for you. I think other folks just took exception to the fact that you originally recommended it to a newb without highlighting that it might give him trouble without more experience.
A mistake on my part again. I had thought it was not so difficult, but seems many are not capable of the speed required. I have tried it on several styles of cloth strops without success. It will work to a degree on 'fire hose" type cloth, but better on another I have found. But have not been able to nail down the composition, only a couple of suppliers.Quote:
Originally Posted by eKretz
Hopefully I have learned to be more careful about suggestions to newbies, and if I do mention such things, I should preface it with the fact that it is indeed a destructive test, and difficult to learn to do right.
I know there are at least 2 or 3 out there playing with it. Hopefully they will return with comments and pointers of where new users of it may run into problems.
Thanks for your comments.
Cheers,
Al
:gwh: Warning: Done carelessly or with improper paper products, cutting paper to test a razor edge can dull the edge and/or cause premature wire edge. (see end of post for description of wire edge). Information in this post may not be suitable for new users, and as such should not be discussed on other forums.
I came upon 5x8 notepads in search of the best medium for this purpose. They are available at all office supply stores in packages of 10 or 12 pads. This is enough for a year or more for most busy honers. The brand is not important, as you have a years’ worth with one purchase. If the next pack is slightly different, it is only a onetime adjustment. There are lots of other papers out there, but I can assure you, I have tried most, and this is one of the best. By buying a 10 pk you will have plenty of identical material.
Each develops his own style for different things, and your ultimate style may differ from mine. As you should do your honing, if you are serious, this should be done with concentration and the fewest interruptions possible. Turn the radio and tv off. A secluded room with an available desk size work surface and a moveable strong light is ideal, and would speed up the learning process.
Start with a sheet from the pad, holding in one hand, at the top edge. Place the heel of a razor at the top edge an inch or so from where you are holding, with the toe up at about 45 degrees. Carefully draw the razor toward you, as you allow it to cut the paper downward. This will take some practice. You do not want side pressures to be created. Take your time. Pay attention to the feel, sight, and sound of the paper. You would normally be using this method while honing, so have your hone in front of you, as you may wish to touch up the edge every so often as the paper will dull it. Cut a few pages. As you feel a little more comfortable, you may try to cut narrower slices to conserve paper, but you have plenty. You will probably want to do this over your honing bench, with a trash can nearby. The way you hold the paper and direction you cut will probably change some with practice, as you learn better ways to make the paper and razor work together. Remember when you learned to shave. For most, it wasn’t the easiest thing you ever did. This won’t be either.
Once you feel comfortable with cutting paper, you may want to make two or three cuts in places I would make one, figuring to do 10-15 additional laps to bring the edge back where it was. IE When I think I am near finished with the 1K, I make a cut, and compare it to another I will make after about 20 more laps. I am checking to see if the edge is still improving, before I move on.
As far as I can tell, paper cutting to test an edge started with knife makers and honers. However, the edge of your razor is much more delicate, and can be damaged more easily. That is probably why paper cutting has never been considered an appropriate edge testing method for razors. The worst damage I have seen is the premature development of a wire edge or some would call a rolled edge. I have never seen this bad enough to not be removed by 10-12 laps, max, on the hone in front of you. I have honed a few new, entry level Dovo razors. I find their geometry to produce a very thin edge, and somewhat prone to wire edge. To the point that I have had to strop long enough to go thru two wire edges before the edge backed up enough so there was enough metal behind the edge to support it thru a shave. This can be seen with experienced paper cutting, as such a razor will be more likely to produce a wire edge while testing as well. That doesn’t mean every wire edge you get is because of geometry, poor technique cutting the paper can certainly cause it as well. And it may take you some time and experience to be able to separate the two. Intentional poor technique can easily roll an edge, as was shown in a previous pic, using much heavier bond paper.
I need to mention here, one more time, that a very good and thorough visual exam before leaving the bevel setter, often 1K, is paramount to success in honing a razor. That inspection should include a way to identify small frowns. I think most people here will agree that perfection in finding faults before leaving the 1K will make the rest of the process much easier and straight forward.
I still hone in a room alone, with no tv or radio. Help your senses to help you. I have told some people that razors talk to me, and it actually isn’t a joke. Learn to let the razor tell you what is needed, and when you are done with a particular stone. 100 of this and 100 of that, if enough, is probably too much, and you are wasting metal. When I think I am near the end of what a particular stone can do for me, I do a few x strokes and make a test slice on the paper. Make another 20 laps and test again. When I am certain the last 20 laps made no improvement, it is time to move on. If too much pressure begins to cause microscopic chips, you will feel and hear them. If a wire edge develops, you will hear it instantly. If you have a small frown that you didn’t catch, or a spot where the hone is not getting to the edge on both sides, you will see the edge slide over a spot without cutting the paper. If the last instance happens to you, it may be time to reassess your visual exam methods.
I test shave every razor I hone. It is the only true test, and even then cannot be certain to shave the next face exactly the same. That said, I would love to not have to test shave each. My method of stropping has very predictable results, but I am never quite sure how many laps it will take. The only methods I have to determine if I have reached my goal is with a microscope, (awkward to use) or a paper test. The paper test is at least 90% accurate in telling me that a razor is ready for the test shave. And that 90% will need nothing further at shave time. At that point the razor will float thru the paper as though under its own weight, and make almost no sound, if any. The edge of the paper where you cut will be slicker than the factory edge. The feel and sound will be completely consistent from heel to toe. If it isn’t, I am not done.
Learn to get the most from each test. Heel to toe. Get a smooth slow cut, listen, watch, feel. They will each reinforce the other. If your honing is lacking a little near the ends, you will be able to detect that long before you have gotten to the test shave, and you will have corrected it.
Like shaving, or honing itself, the more practice you get, the more the concentration and lack of interruptions, the more you will get from your tests. Many may never see a point to develop this much further. Up to you what you do with it and to what point you take it. If you learn this on razors, you will be able to use it with almost any sharp edge. If you ever happen to attempt to hone a razor with metal fatigue, you may very well reach a point that the tests get no better. If your paper cutting has gotten very smooth, you may get all of the way to the test shave before you realize that the edge is not stable enough to complete a shave. No test will always find every potential problem. With practice you will hopefully learn to recognize your intuition, and trust it more. In the last case, you might detect that something about this edge is not right. A few more cuts may help you to start to establish what it is, if the edge seems to deteriorate more quickly than you have grown used to. Remember, slow, easy, draw through the paper, from end to end. Can tell you a lot, if you are listening to your razor talk to you.
Wire edge: Puma factory refers to it as a bur, some refer to it as a feather edge, or sometimes rolled edge. I personally feel a ‘rolled edge’ to describe something a little more severe, but some may use some terms interchangeably. In all cases, it is a very thin edge that has been forced far enough in one direction that it does not return to its proper position by itself. It can occur in honing from not honing enough with edge forward, or using too much pressure. Can also form from too much pressure stropping. Very minor wire edges are very common on very thin edged razors, and need to be honed off or sometimes stropped off. Generally, each time one is removed, the metal behind the new edge will be a little heavier with more support. :shrug:
Been a while, but believe the thread is still open to comments. Still getting views. Has anyone tried this? Any success or failures?
Cheers,
It has been a while and yes the thread is still open to comments.
I have used the paper method and found it useful at times. it is satisfying silently and smoothly slicing through a piece of paper after finishing a razor on a thuringian stone. like stated above, it usually folds the edge and needs to be taken back to the hone. For this reason, i don't do it often. I bet newspaper or tissue paper would be more forgiving but i haven't tried it.
I cut off a hair on an old badger brush (usually the raggedy strands jetting out) and do the hanging hair test with it. it is a lot easier to pass since the hair is more course/thicker. the hairs are also fairly consistent.
Cheers!
I took a shave ready razor that was going to be re honed anyway, made a few paper cuts, and could see damage at 100x. I haven't found a place to really use the test in my normal honing.
