Iwasaki - breadknifing - Jim Rion - translation correction

By sheer chance this evening I found myself looking at Jim Rion's website.
Jim is the guy who translated the Iwasaki document.
Jim has stated that in a recent visit with Iwasaki he learned that he had to make a correction.

Here is his text .....
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" Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori: Updated.
Posted by Jim Rion in Fundamentals, Honing, Iwasaki, Kamisori, Straight Razors, Toishi
I made a translation error, of course.

On my recent visit to Iwasaki-san, I asked him about the particularly confusing section, 3.5 Edge Finishing.

What I translated as "standing" should have been translated as "lengthwise."

Instead of honing the razor standing, you hone it flat but pull it parallel to the edge...meaning, not forward or backward, but sideways, 1mm or 2mm. "
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My take on this is "not bread knifing" ! :)

Here is the link, the date on the post is 27 May.

Iwasaki | Eastern Smooth

May 27, 2011.

:angel:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

May 27, 2011.

:angel:

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No wonder you have so many "Thanks" :)

Yep, this was caught and discussed here quite some time ago, haha. Actually probably several times now - but it's all good - we can't all read every post.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

Yep, this was caught and discussed here quite some time ago, haha. Actually probably several times now - but it's all good - we can't all read every post.

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Discussed ? You mean like this ........... :jedi: ............ :rofl2:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Discussed ? You mean like this ........... :jedi: ............ :rofl2:

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Well, yes, the saying is that it takes two to have an argument and I have held up my side occasionally.

Of course, now I am calm and sedate.

In the version I have he has added a correction in red.

Here it is: http://strazors.com/uploads/images/a...onkamisori.pdf

Thank you ! :)

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Originally Posted by Kees

In the version I have he has added a correction in red.

Here it is: http://strazors.com/uploads/images/a...onkamisori.pdf

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All he does is make super short strokes because that allows for best control and lightest pressure. It is not easy to maintain the same amount of light pressure with long strokes across the entire hone surface, much easier with very short strokes. It does not take too many to finish the edge too.

This still means edge straight down on hone? Like trying to cut the hone? Just little strokes. Correct?

Moved to the Advanced Honing Forum

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Originally Posted by Gasman

This still means edge straight down on hone? Like trying to cut the hone? Just little strokes. Correct?

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I too was/am confused as to that, but a very knowledgeable honer, with long experience told me Iwasaki means the edge and spine in contact with the hone. It does not mean 'jointing' , A.K.A. breadknifing. :shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gasman

This still means edge straight down on hone? Like trying to cut the hone? Just little strokes. Correct?

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Not correct. Keep in mind the following two points Iwasaki described.

1. This is the final honing step.

2. It is to continue for 10 to 15 minutes.

Imagine what your final edge would be like if the blade were held in the breadknifing orientation for this final honing step.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Not correct. Keep in mind the following two points Iwasaki described.

1. This is the final honing step.

2. It is to continue for 10 to 15 minutes.

Imagine what your final edge would be like if the blade were held in the breadknifing orientation for this final honing step.

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I agree 100 % with Utopian.
Given that Iwasaki was no fool it is also most likely that he did not mean 10-15 minutes but rather meant 10-15 seconds. Probably another misinterpretation.

Any time you read something always evaluate it by asking yourself and others if this seems reasonable and fits within your own experience.

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

I agree 100 %

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I think that brings the total maybe up to as high as 7. :)

I am of course joking about this number. I doubt it's that high!

I am now going back & re-reading the Iwasaki doc re the 10-15 minute statement. Back in a few minutes ....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

I am now going back & re-reading the Iwasaki doc re the 10-15 minute statement. Back in a few minutes ....

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Consider this step is after removal of a microburr or "false edge" as he describes it.
It is a "slightly" rounded edge left after CrO on felt .
Also consider it is a 2 mm stroke on a razor usually in the mid to high 800's of the Vicker's scale.
Minutes may be more realistic than seconds.

Here is the relevant part regarding honing time.

3-Honing Time
Many people think that when they hone on coarse abrasives, they should spend a lot of time, then
gradually reduce their honing time as they move to finer honing. However, in reality, the opposite is
true: they should be gradually increasing the time. When you hone with pressure on coarse
particles, you not only remove chips in the edge, but also wear away the steel of the spine and
blade. Honing time for both Kamisori and razors should be divided as follows:
(1) Coarse honing - Botan Nagura - 3-4 minutes
(2) Middle honing - Tenjou Nagura - 4-5 minutes
(3) Finishing - Tomonagura - 5-6 minutes
(4) False Edge removal - Raxa hone - 10 seconds
(5) Edge Finishing - Honyama Hone - Japanese made folding razor 10 min; Kamisori/Imported
Razor/Iwasaki Razor 15 minutes.
In the above, most people might not notice that the final step, "Edge Finishing," takes 10-15
minutes. But when you try it, it will become clear.

Also remember that he is not talking about using a man made hone like the Norton 4/8 because the Norton is much, much, much more aggressive than a Japanese natural without any slurry. As we know a hard Japanese natural finishing stone used without a slurry is almost as slow as a very smooth Arkansas surgical black stone :)......
.
.
and he is not talking about a razor with any sort of "smile" on the edge....
.
.
and I find it very difficult to make 1mm - 2 mm movements, how about you?

Back in a few minutes

BTW, Utopian was kind enough to give me a call and chat about this, thanks Ron :)

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

BTW, Utopian was kind enough to give me a call and chat about this, thanks Ron :)

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It's quite rare for me to have the opportunity to tell you why you are wrong! :)

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

BTW, Utopian was kind enough to give me a call and chat about this, thanks Ron :)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

It's quite rare for me to have the opportunity to tell you why you are wrong! :)

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Not to worry Randy, I was wrong once myself, happens to the best of us ................ :w

Ok, I have just re-read the Iwasaki document.

Jim Rions correction to his interpretation/translation makes it clear that Iwasaki was not speaking of jointing/breadknifing. Here is the best version posted on his blog
================================================== =====
Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori: Updated.
Posted by Jim Rion in Fundamentals, Honing, Iwasaki, Kamisori, Straight Razors, Toishi
I made a translation error, of course.

On my recent visit to Iwasaki-san, I asked him about the particularly confusing section, 3.5 Edge Finishing.

What I translated as "standing" should have been translated as "lengthwise."

Instead of honing the razor standing, you hone it flat but pull it parallel to the edge...meaning, not forward or backward, but sideways, 1mm or 2mm.
================================================== ==========

This makes it abundantly clear. the razor is laid flat on the stone just as we do with normal edge leading honing. The direction is different. Instead of edge leading ( left to right, east/west) it is
now north/south .

A video/graphic would be best. Can anyone find a video on YouTube that shows this? Send/post a link please.
Thanks :)


To me the issue of Iwasaki suggesting jointing is now completely discredited. It is also against what a lot of us have learned from experience/observation.


Regarding Iwasaki's suggestion for honing time .....

I found it interesting that he started with the assumption that the work was being done on a previously honed razor that was no longer giving a very good shave. It was not an antique store find that needed major work nor was it in need of any chip/nick removal. This made it unnecessary to recreate a bevel from scratch. He only needed to "refresh" the bevel and thus the short amount of time
spent on the coarser stones, none of which cut very fast . Lets remember he is not using manmade artificial stones that cut much faster. so that accounts for the length of time which would be much shorter if he used the artificial stones.

RE the 10-15 minutes final step

That really made me raise my eyebrows in surprise. I did not remember seeing that when I read this document when it first came out. But, there it is. So why that long of a time?
I think it is explained by several things

1. He is using a hard, fine Japanese natural stone without any slurry. These cut so very slowly and he is making such short strokes with very light pressure ( almost none, weight of razor only) that remove very little steel .

2. He may be honing a razor that has been heat treated properly and thus demands more time.

3. I suspect that his previous steps did not refine the edge sufficiently and thereby required more time on the last finishing . This is what I think is most likely and I think he does this deliberately. It gives him more control over the end result.

4. And as Onimaru55 has correctly pointed out Iwasaki had to remove the slight rounding created by the chrome oxide removing the false edge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

This makes it abundantly clear. the razor is laid flat on the stone just as we do with normal edge leading honing. The direction is different. Instead of edge leading ( left to right, east/west) it is
now north/south . A video would be best. Can anyone find a video on YouTube that shows this?

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Action is here @ about 9.50 mins in. I do believe it is limited to straight edges like planes, chisels & wa-kamisori but it's a common technique.
I remember watching So hone a plane blade with a similar stroke but ofc with his fingers above the edge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFMHWpi9gdc

Tell you what, that guy, whoever he is, ain't lapping none of my stones ! I'll say no more about that.

I think that demonstration beginning at the 9 minute + mark explains the 2mm movement portion of Iwasaki's text. So while he is moving fore and aft with the one motion, he is also moving sideways. A picture really is worth a thousand words, particularly a moving picture. Many thanks to Randy for bringing the corrected translation, and Oz for the video. :tu

May I add that if anyone wants to discuss alternative methods or the pro & cons of jointing that they please start a separate thread.

This thread was to discuss what Iwasaki said about jointing and the answer is .....

NOTHING! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

May I add that if anyone wants to discuss alternative methods or the pro & cons of jointing that they please start a separate thread.

This thread was to discuss what Iwasaki said about jointing and the answer is .....

NOTHING! :)

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Two separate discussions as you rightly point out. I think what iwasaki said was cleared up long ago in another thread and the separate discussion of the pros and cons of jointing have been discussed at length already too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steel

Two separate discussions as you rightly point out. I think what iwasaki said was cleared up long ago in another thread and the separate discussion of the pros and cons of jointing have been discussed at length already too.

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The reason this thread was created is that recently there have been a number of people promoting the use of jointing and using Iwasaki as justification and I wanted to clear that up ...again. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

The reason this thread was created is that recently there have been a number of people promoting the use of jointing and using Iwasaki as justification and I wanted to clear that up ...again. :)

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Your intent was clear Randy. Thank you for reopening and clearing this up...again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Tell you what, that guy, whoever he is, ain't lapping none of my stones ! I'll say no more about that.

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Why not Jimmy? He's chamfering the sides as he laps :rolleyes:

Well, im sorry for my question now. I see what is being said now.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zfhh1PSnfxg
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zfhh1PSnfxg
Thought id add an old vid of Ryoichi Mizuochi san honing, a bit off topic but a great video of Shigeyoshi Iwasakis successor honing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steel

I think what iwasaki said was cleared up long ago in another thread

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I'm not sure to which thread you are referring; but unless by "long ago" you mean something around a month ago, the merging of the joining/jointing concept with Iwasaki has been ongoing until as recently as then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

the merging of the joining/jointing concept with Iwasaki has been ongoing until as recently as then.

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I wonder who started that whole thing, they two different concepts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I wonder who started that whole thing, they two different concepts.

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"Killing the edge" goes back to the old days of the "Restore Chat Room" it was an accepted practice after the Buffers or Sanding at the bevel restoration stages.

Then the next mention that moved it into the realm of "Honing" was Bart and the Coticule guys, and even then it was at the bevel setting stage

That painful vid from the Shapton guy moved it into the high grit ranges using some ideas from tool honing

After that the Iwasaki misrepresentation has moved the idea into normal honing regimes

What is being talked about now is an adaptation of Cross-honing, as a way to eliminate deeper stria and again is old news..

The original post, 2 years ago, (Hone a Straight Edge or to a Straight Edge, and Side Stroke, Side Honing Revisited) had nothing to do with Iwasaki and the translation of his writings, other than it was an impetus to the question asked in the first post, about side honing.

The Jim Rion correction was posted in the original thread, 2 years ago,

The Iwasaki/jointing connection was brought up and the translation was well agreed upon and settled in that thread, 2 years ago. It was not a big deal and really, only a small side issue in the thread.

What Iwasaki said, meant or how Jim translated it, had nothing to do with the thread, which was a question, asking for Opinions about, side honing. Only one person has continued to beat that drum for 2 years…

It was not an issue then, and still is not an issue today. As I said, this same information was posted in that thread 2 years ago, and most who posted in the thread agreed on the revised translation, others could care less.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

It was not an issue then, and still is not an issue today.

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I feel this issue was well worth bringing up... again.
There is still plenty of misinformation on youtube.

You've only got to look at Gasman's question to see that this topic is not clear in everyone's mind:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ml#post1696441