Thread: HHT and Wedges (actually, Near Wedges)

I posted this in this section instead of general honing because I don't really wan't beginners' suppositions. Not that I want to exclude anyone, but it's something I've noticed over 10 years.

When I hone a near wedge, and the edge shaves well, the HHT is never quite as good as it is on a double hollow grind razor. I wonder if there is some kind of connection between the stiffness of a razor edge (i.e., wedges are more rigid) and the ease in passing HHT.

I am not a money honer, I just hone razors I dump as a courtesy because I notice that even when I'm just turning over my collection, it seems like 75%+ of the buyers aren't able to properly hone their razors. I have a system of using my daughter's hair (hers is consistent and reliable for the HHT, my wife's is thicker and erratic on HHT - I am balding and mine is 3/8" long so I have to scrounge hairs laying around the house) where a good clean severing of hair on both sides of the razor front to back has always confirmed a good edge.

Anyway, off of that tangent - have you guys noticed that wedges don't pass the HHT as well? I use natural stones almost exclusively without powders, but I will finish a friodur edge with crox because they are a touch softer and the natural stones cut them ever so slightly deeper than a hard tempered carbon steel razor (and their alloy also holds on to the final foil bits a little longer and stronger than hard carbon steel).

(and now I will wait for the obligatory post that says "if you hone them right, they all perform the same" )

I noticed this years ago with a heavy ground Hayashi that I had that was plenty hard, shaved very well, but never wanted to pass HHT like my other razors do.

Edge of the razor that I'm about to shave with (friodur near wedge - just to get both stainless and near wedge in the equation) - marginal HHT results (splitting hairs before severing them, etc). Edge is post linen and leather, so shiny bits are a product of that. They don't appear until linen and leather. They look similar to what I see on a carbon steel edge after stropping.

Also, I only ever do the bevel set once on a razor, so I never skimp on that, and I never allow an uneven bevel as it's just a way to get inconsistent honing down the road (fat bevel on one side, thin on the other or same issue from one end to another).

I've honed quite a few razors over the years and find little or no correlation between grind and HHT. But, there could be. If the razor shaves you well, it is honed to perfection.
I remember that some of the older timer honers said that HHT is not always a good guide to perfection.
Keep on doing what works!
~Richard

I agree on that, the shave being the most important part of the equation. I do like to use HHT (the hair has to be the same each time, the test performed the same way, etc, to get anything out of it that's reliable) just because I usually don't end up having to come back to hone a razor the second time if I get a certain result.

I've spotted defective razors with it, though defective razors aren't that common ( defective as in the edge just won't finish without some kind of damage showing up ), though they can also pass HHT if the hair is placed on a spot on the edge that's not notched, folded or broken out.

At any rate, I've probably only honed a half a dozen wedges and near wedges (my opinion might be based on too small of a sample). They've all shaved fine, I just haven't quite had the same luck with the HHT providing identical results.

Well, if you hone them right, they all perform the same.

I don't regularly do the HHT but have found no difference with it between wedges and hollows.

Now that we got that out of the way, I have one question. Do you use fresh tape regularly? I'm assuming that you use tape on wedges and you probably know that the tape wears and leads to an angle change at the edge.

Your photo shows scratches in three directions. Was this fresh off the hone or after stropping? The bevel is slightly darker in the third of it closest to the edge, and the prominent diagonal scratches stop at its margin. All of this makes me wonder if you are reaching the edge.

I don't use tape. I don't have any true wedges, but if I did, I would use tape, but the last stone always gets a fresh piece of tape to make sure the edge is reached.

The bevel was finished with a suita, thus there are less than uniform scratches, but they are not deep like a synthetic, so they don't terminate in a notch at the edge.

This is post stropping, the edge of the bevel is dark due to chromium oxide. I wouldn't use it on most razors, but I've noticed that on stainless razors, the finish is better (and the shave less crispy) than with natural stones. That shouldn't be a surprise because they're 440C, which doesn't finish as neatly on a given stone due to its propensity to hold foil, even at the tiny levels of foil on razors. I don't find any improvement with crox on a harder carbon steel razor.

re: the tape thing again, this is a new razor, a friodur 11 (something I haven't seen before). The bevel is still small, but if someone over hones it, it will grow quickly due to the profile of the grind. It's less "wedge" than an old wostenholm or something of that sort, but it's a very thick and heavy grind without much hollow. The edge is reached, and the razor shaves hair well. It passes the HHT in the condition shown, but much like the hayashi razor I had, not the silent effortless way.

I've noticed also on the very hollow razors, the HHT often passes with a very quiet ping. It leads me to believe that the edge is being played a little bit or it wouldn't make that ping (if it pings, it's moving a little with the hair).

I'm way down the rabbit hole here with this supposition, but have found it curious.

It's very hard to judge the shaves with these razors (of course, it's fine, but they don't have the same feel that an ultra hollow light weight razor has. they just shave the hairs off silently).

In terms of trying to make the bevel look pretty when the edge is excellent, it's not something that I generally do. I scope an edge like this when I don't get the results I want to ensure there isn't notching or foil damage (which is often the cause of poor HHT results). If the edge has been reached and it is as uniform as this one is, it's a better edge than I've gotten on purchased "professionally honed" new razors, which I would suspect are honed very quickly due to the sellers' need to put through a lot of razors quickly.

Bunch of variables, too - would the test be different with another type of hair? No clue, I don't change variables (like using my wife's much heavier hairs) because I can't conclude much.

What I typically get without crox is shown in the attached picture. Edges like the one shown don't look as pretty as a bevel that's been croxed off (so that nothing shows up optically), but the shave is comfortable and spectacular - close with no weeps. Adding a bunch of crox work to this edge with a hanging strop will make it more dull. Less darkening to the edge, but a little bit of foiling because it's post strop. It's invisible pre-strop. The lack of darkening is just because the edge has seen non-abrasive linen and horse butt, which burnishes it a little bit, but that's about all - further into the use cycle, more of the edge would be dark because of the leather, but I'm not sure if all of the superficial scratches would ever be burnished off - I have to admit that I haven't looked at an edge that's had 200 shaves on it without any abrasive, but those edges still pass HHT reasonably easily.

One other side comment (maybe I said this in context earlier).

The actual very edge of the razor never looks the same between friodur vs. hard carbon steel. The friodurs always look a little worse until they see the crox, and they can't sustain the stiff treatment on a linen that a harder carbon steel razor can.

Of course, the payoff is that they don't rust in most cases (you can find an old one from time to time that's got minor corrosion, but never deep pits), and you can learn to work with their slightly lower hardness by having a lighter touch with them.

It seems like you've already thought it all through. I do agree with you that the stiffer grind of near wedges will not deflect as much, if at all, and so the hair cutting will be more quiet in comparison to a full hollow being more likely to ping when the blade flexes. I think that effect with the HHT is the same explanation for why it feels different during the shave.

As long as you are happy with the shaves, you might have to remain satisfied with that.

Yes, happy with the shaves (happy to dump wedges to the next person who likes them, though, too). Just curious about other folks and what they've found with this - I find the HHT thing a bit annoying, because it's part of my regular routine and I've come to expect a good shave after it 99% of the time. The razors that don't like it as much for me, still provide a good shave, but it's a bit like flying blind.

FWIW, I have at times tried HHT with chisels ground at 25 degrees just for giggles, and they are very inconsistent - but that could be due to their heft, or just due to the fact that the angle is 25 degrees instead of a lower razor angle. I don't do that day to day (chisels have an edge blasted off fast, so geometry is more important than fineness once you get past what would be middle sharpness for a razor), but I do recall stu tierney showing a split then severed hair with one of his stones once and felt the urge to troll him (he and I know each other well and are friends) in fun by showing a chisel that passed HHT with $3 worth of sharpening material.

Daily shower and shave - first shave with this razor, it shaves as well and as smoothly as anything else I've shaved with in 10 years. That's good. Sort of like playing ping pong with a cast iron frying pan in terms of weight and heft.

The disconnect between edge and test is a bit annoying, though!