Thread: Shaptoneers, please confirm something for me...

If an edge that goes from passing HHT on lower grit stones, to failing the HHT on polishing stones but shaving well......would that same edge again pass the HHT if polished at a higher grit or to a keener level?

Chris L
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IMHO the answer to that will depend upon your hair, the razor and the hone used.

Newbie here, worked on a Sta Sharp and couldn't get it to pass the HHT. It was okay on the TPT and popped hair off of my forearm so I shaved with it. I got an okay shave but I would'nt call it a comfortable shave. I have to work on it some more obviously.

I think what matters is that all of our blades are shaving quite well. Tests like the HHT are so subjective that someone else's info is essentially useless to anyone other than the tester.

I would like to know the outcome of the experiment, but it's not likely to change my honing methods.

Thanks for all the replies so far, gentlemen.

It seems this has boiled down a bit to a discussion about the HHT, which was not really my intention. My original goal for starting this thread is to find out if and where striations, or thoothiness -if you wish- come into play when sharpening a razor. The HHT tests how well an edge severs a hair, which seems at least of some relevance to me, but for this experiment that all does not matter.
If a person progresses trough a series of grits, and he performs the HHT at each grit level, then it's safe to suppose he 'd do so in the same fashion, with the same hair, on the same razor. The only variable would be the grit size of the hone. IF THE HHT JUST KEEPS IMPROVING TILL IT MAXES OUT, THEN THAT MEANS "TOOTHINESS" IS NOT AFFECTING THE WAY HAIR SHAFTS ARE PENETRATED BY AN EDGE.
IF, HOWEVER, THE HHT DISSIPATES, AFTER A CERTAIN GRIT LEVEL, TO IMPROVE AGAIN AT A MUCH HIGHER GRIT LEVEL, THEN THAT MEANS THAT TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF EDGES ARE CAPABLE OF POSSIBLE SHAVE-WORTHINESS.
It would be a starting point for further investigation.
Like I said, I have no means to do this experiment myself. I understand that Shaptons all have the same type of abrasive medium, so I really think that would be the hones to perform such experiment. Doing it on different types of hones would be ambiguous, because of the difference in abrasive media. So I humbly beg to you Shapton owners out there, to perform such a progression, perform a HHT at each level, and report your findings in this thread. I would be most grateful.

Thanks,

Bart.

I actually use a modified version of the HHT when I hone my razors. I still own the hair when I do the test, as in the hair is still attached to either my scalp or most often my mustache which always needs a bit of trimming anyway. For me, the finer I go in grit for polishing, the quicker the razor grabs a hair. Secondary is the amount of tugging to actually cut the hair, the more polished the edge is the smoother it cuts the hair and the less tugging I feel.

The serrations or grooves left from the grit used to sharpen the edge do have an effect on the cutting but as we are not sawing our beard off, the serrations will hinder, rather than help the cutting of hair unless the razor is so dull that the only hope of severing the hair is by catching and breaking it off in which case coarser serrations should help. The smoother the surface of the bevel providing our edge is intact, the lower the cutting resistance.

My prediction is that the finer the hone, the more effortless the HHT will become provided of course that the honer does his job correctly. Using slurry type stones is an entirely different matter, my coticule honed razors rarely pass the HHT until I polish with a CrO2 pasted bench strop.


Regards

Christian

Originally Posted by Bart

IF THE HHT JUST KEEPS IMPROVING TILL IT MAXES OUT, THEN THAT MEANS "TOOTHINESS" IS NOT AFFECTING THE WAY HAIR SHAFTS ARE PENETRATED BY AN EDGE.
IF, HOWEVER, THE HHT DISSIPATES, AFTER A CERTAIN GRIT LEVEL, TO IMPROVE AGAIN AT A MUCH HIGHER GRIT LEVEL, THEN THAT MEANS THAT TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF EDGES ARE CAPABLE OF POSSIBLE SHAVE-WORTHINESS.

Bart.

My normal full on progression is DMT 1200, Norton 4K, Belgian Blue, Belgian Yellow, Escher, Nakayama. With my hair, which is thick, the HHT starts to work at the DMT/Norton level and then quickly improves at every step. I get the same results with different types of badger and boar hairs from brushes. With my girlfriend's hair, which is very thin and long, only good razors at least at the Belgian Yellow stage and above will perform well (or at all). In my experience with the hair that I have used, the performance of the HHT does not deteriorate as I move up in grits; rather it improves. Stropping the razor will also generally improve the performance of the HHT. Therefore, in my experience using the different types of hair that I have used a sharper more polished edge will perform better in the HHT than a more toothy less polished edge. I agree that the HHT is just a test, and passing it well will not guarantee that you will be happy with the way that the shave that the edge provides. On the other hand I have never had a razor that I thought shaved really well that did not pass the HHT really well. Every time I have ignored bad HHT’s (and/or TPT's) and test shaved a razor anyway have not been good experiences. Therefore, the test does provide me with useful information so I will continue to use it. I'm not sure if this helps you or not but at least it's another data point.

David

Bart,

I like the way you're thinking here, but there's a problem. I have a hard time getting an edge to pass the HHT off the coticule, but the same edge will shave very well.

I do think that the toothy-ness of the edge has a big impact on the HHT. For me, test works best off my Belgian blue, medium barber hones, or the 8K Norton. It doesn't work well off the coticule, although these edges give me the smoothest shaves.

Maybe the very toothy-ness that makes a hair catch and cut cleanly also causes the razor to drag a bit when it's hitting hundreds of hairs at once. I'm not sure...

Also, I've tried the HHT with Feather AC blades, and they perform like a low-grit edge: the hair pops rather than slicing cleanly. Regular DE blades seem to cut the hair more smoothly.

Josh

The Coticule's enigmatic behavior is part of my reason for creating this thread.

My own experience is this: If I raise slurry on a coticule, any coticule so far, I'm almost certain to loose HHT-ability. Doing light pressure laps on a coticule with only water, restores the HHT, again. In fact, I can also feel the difference while doing the TPT. The DMT edge and the Coticule/water edge, feeling more sticky than the coticule/slurry edge. Some have stated the coticule/water is higher grit than the coticule/slurry, but I have done an experiment, and found no evidence for that claim. In my experiment, I did 100 laps on an already perfectly honed razor, using a coticule/water. Then I did 30 laps on a coticule/slurry, on the toe half of the blade (from the toe to the middle). Then 10 laps on the DMT, on the toe quarter of the blade. Inspection at 40X magnification with a high end stereo microscope showed no difference between the Coticule/water and the Coticule/slurry scratch marks. The DMT-marks were very distinct, as expected. The HHT worked on the DMT part and on the Coticlue/water part, but NOT on the Coticule/slurry part. Stropping did improve the HHT-results on the Coticule/water part from "popping" to "slicing". The DMT results and the Cotiule/slurry inability to pass HHT, were not altered by the stropping.

I think the use of slurry on a Coticule might abrade the very tip of the cutting bevel a bit. Not to such an extent that it can't be restored by laps on a Coticule with only water, but still.
That kind of contra-intuitive behavior makes it hard to use the Coticules for experiments about the raw physics of edge formation, and the way "toothiness" plays a key role with that, or not. Hence, my question about the development of HHT-results on a consistent set of synthetic hones.

My interest in "toothines" aka striations, comes from Lynn's pyramids. I know the main idea is to prevent overhoning (seemingly to be an issue with the Norton, but never found on a Coticule, perhaps because of the "tip-of-bevel-abbrasion"- that I postulated about above). But I also wonder about the prescribed ratios between the 4K and the 8K. That has to leave some 4K scratches under the 8K-polishing, right? Bottom line: are there two kind of shaveready edges? The first being a "polished toothy" one, the second being a more elaborate, evened-out smooth one. The former being less comfortable but more durable and the latter smoother, but less durable. My initial analogy with slicing tomatoes, not being as stupid as it sounds?

The experiment with the HHT is a first step to find out. It's such fun... reïnventing the wheel, that I just can't resist.

Bart.