Thread: Bevel Level

For the purpose of calculating the bevel angle and being technically accurate, yes. But very few people label their razors by that measurement, they use total width from spine to edge.

Size really doesn't matter all that much anyway; a proper angle with the right balance and the weight that you prefer are more important.

But not the current manufacturers like Thiers Issard or DOVO.

Russell,

It does matter.

Many shavers don't understand or want to understand these issues. They want a shave..

They know that a 5/8" hollow ground round point razor is a good starting point and gives a good shave.

The razor they buy is advertised as such.

Actually its an old razor which measured a full 7/8" when new but had a 6/8" blade the rest being the dome on the spine. The advertised razor actually has only 4/8" of true blade left.

The razor does not shave like a 5/8" full hollow ground but more like a 4/8" wedge. The blade is stiff and in need of a regrind.

They give up shaving with a straight because the blade was uncomfortable.

Yes, it does matter very much. There is too much con in the world already. Selling mutton as lamb is not the way forward in my opinion.

I agree that there are no exact standards for measuring the size of a blade. This subject has come up numerous times in the past and no standardization has occurred. What I would really like to see is the manufacturers listing the angle of the bevel's. Not a measurement from the top of the spine to the edge but rather from resting point to resting point. Also the steel type, HRC and the degree of grind.

Just some wishful thinking.

What's this I see? Yes, yes, it could be... yes, yes it has every appearance of... yes, yes it is!! The gaunlet has been tossed and there it is laying on the ground where all razor makers can plainly see it.

Originally Posted by English

Russell,

...

...

They give up shaving with a straight because the blade was uncomfortable.

English,

I meant that the blade steel, bevel angle, grind, balance and weight of a razor are what determine it's "feel" not the distance between the cutting edge and spine.

The bevel angle and steel determine how the blade takes it's edge. The grind determines it's "flexibility". the balance and weight determine how it feels in the hand and effort required to use it. Yes, the feel of a razor will change if you alter it's dimensions or properties, but change does not imply a decrease in usability as you keep suggesting.

That 6/8 honed down to 4/8 is still perfectly usable. It may not feel 100% like the original, but there would be other factors to assess if it didn't shave well anymore.

Originally Posted by English

Russell,

It does matter.

Many shavers don't understand or want to understand these issues. They want a shave..

They know that a 5/8" hollow ground round point razor is a good starting point and gives a good shave.

The razor they buy is advertised as such.

Actually its an old razor which measured a full 7/8" when new but had a 6/8" blade the rest being the dome on the spine. The advertised razor actually has only 4/8" of true blade left.

The razor does not shave like a 5/8" full hollow ground but more like a 4/8" wedge. The blade is stiff and in need of a regrind.

They give up shaving with a straight because the blade was uncomfortable.

Yes, it does matter very much. There is too much con in the world already. Selling mutton as lamb is not the way forward in my opinion.

To me, this is hugely overstated. A hollow grind hones a bit quicker and gives a different shaving experience, because of lesser weight and because of different sound feedback. Other than that, flexibility has nothing to do with how it shaves. I don't think anyone pushes a razor hard enough against his face, to bring that kind of flexibility into play. At least I don't.
My small collection of razors is completely aimed to find out what kind of razor I like best. I've purchased from 4/8 full hollows to big lumpy wedges, and most anything in between. Some are brand new and others are over a century old.
I still haven't made my mind up about what suits me best, and I 'm starting to think that I never will. If I manage to get them nicely honed, something that's continuously improving, I like them all. I have not met one single experience that would support the thesis that flexibility has any direct effect on shaveability.

I agree with Russel that as long as the steel is good and the bevel angle falls within limits, any razor can be honed to provide a superior shave. I might add that not every razor seems to respond equally well to a given honing method. But that's a honer's problem, not a razor's.

With respect,
Bart.

I definitely agree with you guys (English and Randy) that some more specific and useful info ought to be provided with a razor that is being sold by a knowledgeable vendor. Especially if it's a recently manufactured blade. It really bugs me that the steel being used isn't documented, or provided. No other high-end cutlery manufacturers hide it, why should it be acceptable for straight razor makers to do so.

Bart, that sounds like my razor collection, all shapes and sizes, with the exception that I definitely prefer the heftier ones.

I was surprised to find the narrowest, lightest weight razor is my fav so far.

The flexibility that I have refered to is not exactly related to the grind or original design. For instance a new razor properly honed by a skilled person gives you the typical flex at the edge per design.

prematurely thin the spine by 2mm for example and the bevel extends much further, bevel is much thinner near edge offering less support allowing the edge to flex more-- that is the flex I am concerned with. Still not an issue?

or by artifically raising the hone angle one could add support the the 0 edge with thicker material- which may not be needed unless condition above is relevant

Originally Posted by kevint

I was surprised to find the narrowest, lightest weight razor is my fav so far.

The flexibility that I have referred to is not exactly related to the grind or original design. For instance a new razor properly honed by a skilled person gives you the typical flex at the edge per design.

prematurely thin the spine by 2mm for example and the bevel extends much further, bevel is much thinner near edge offering less support allowing the edge to flex more-- that is the flex I am concerned with. Still not an issue?

or by artifically raising the hone angle one could add support the the 0 edge with thicker material- which may not be needed unless condition above is relevant

If you thin the spine than the bevel angle gets a bit steeper. Add tape and the bevel gets obtuser. This affects the edge's behavior, but within the typical limits between 15 and 20 degrees, if honed properly, a razor will provide a decent shave.
On the other hand, if a bevel gets wider because the width of a razor is decreasing with each honing job, the bevel triangle is located at a thicker part of the blade. In that likely case, wider bevel panes make the edge sturdier instead of weaker. In other words: with constant bevel angle, wider bevel panes are stiffer than smaller bevel panes. (more steel to sustain the edge).

If a razor is usually honed without tape, the spine will abrade along with the edge, leaving the bevel angle unchanged for many decades. If the spine is always prevented from abrading, over time, with decreasing blade width, the bevel angle becomes obtuser. Also that would take a long time and could be corrected by grinding down the spine.

In 99% of the cases, if an A-brand razor doesn't shave very well, the flaw is in the honing.
We can discuss the genus of angels for the rest of our lives, the most likely explanation still remains that that your DD Dwarf deserves a better honing job. I am equally sure that job is within your capabilities.

With respect,
Bart.