Thread: My GDLP has issues...........................

30 seconds?!?!

That'd be impressive to see, slurry would be flying all over the place!

So the surface does not have a guarnteed flatness, then, only the backing material? Seems like a strange way of measuring flatness.

Glad to hear he is taking a personal interest in your case though, hope it turns out well.

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

30 seconds?!?!

That'd be impressive to see, slurry would be flying all over the place!

So the surface does not have a guarnteed flatness, then, only the backing material? Seems like a strange way of measuring flatness.

Glad to hear he is taking a personal interest in your case though, hope it turns out well.

I agree, when he "puts his shoulders into it", he must be reaming on the GDLP or the stone. I've never even come close to applying that much pressure. Now, if I get the GDLP back, I can look forward to an extra workout!

Yep, the float glass has that guaranteed flatness. Harrelson said even if the GDLP surface is lapped/refreshed, with .5 flat for the glass, the actual but undetermined flatness of the GDLP surface would still be much flatter than the DMT .001" claimed flatness.

Chris L

Originally Posted by Chris L

Yep, the float glass has that guaranteed flatness. Harrelson said even if the GDLP surface is lapped/refreshed, with .5 flat for the glass, the actual but undetermined flatness of the GDLP surface would still be much flatter than the DMT .001" claimed flatness.

Chris L

I'm sorry, I just can't stand for this kind of nonsense. (No not yours Chris, Harrelsons!). How the h*ll can he claim that an "undetermined" as in unmeasured or verified surface flatness of a hand lapped hone will be much flatter than that of another hone which is guaranteed by the manufacturer not to *exceed* a .001 deviance in flatness?!?!?! First off, as Harrelson has up front admitted that the .5 is nothing more than the accuracy of the substrate which has (according to his own statement) absolutely nothing to do with the surface of multiple layers of diamonds or rather a slurry of diamonds in some sort of binder and who afterwards makes no claims to have measured or made any guarantee of the accuracy of it's surface after manufacturing or for that matter after hand lapping yet there he is saying he knows (nudge nudge.... wink wink) it has to be way more accurate. After all, he's charging you nearly 6 times the cost of a DMT so it has to be better, right?!?!

Nope, I don't buy into his statements, or the "substrate" is flatter, therefore the surface must be as well. If they are laying down multiple layers of diamonds on top of this substrate, they would have to re-surface the hone in order to know what level of flatness it has. It's like pouring concrete, the substrate can be made very flat but unless you tightly control the pouring and leveling of the final top coat, the substrate accuracy is lost.

Now, lapping by hand has been done for many, many years and it is well known that it can be done quite accurately but it does require skill and must be verified by some method of measurement if you want to make some form of claim about it. Lapping or surface scraping is often measured by using a layout dye and a surface plate of known accuracy. Strangely enough, those folks skilled in lapping and or scraping surfaces to make them dead flat have to frequently check them on the surface plate to gauge their progress and help decide when they have reached a given measure of accuracy. It does not appear that Harrelson is taking any of these steps and therefore his claims are meaningless to me.

Now, if you take Harrelsons description of how he uses the DGLP to flatten hones, it becomes quite apparent that he's shooting for "good enough" and not absolute flatness and of course he is correct. This is not nano technology, a thou here or a thou there is not going to make one damn bit of difference and so sloppy, heavy handed lapping is acceptable... h*ll, it's even encouraged as after all, the more you lean on the flattening hone, the faster you'll be back to buy another hone!

Shapton Glass hones are a great product, I'm super happy with mine but Shapton can keep their over priced diamond lapping plates. The best lapping system they have is really the cast iron plate/powdered abrasive system. It's tried and true, been used for decades and is known to remain accurate to any reasonable degree if used correctly.

Regards

Kaptain "I stands all I can stands but I can't stands no more." Zero

Originally Posted by kaptain_zero

I'm sorry, I just can't stand for this kind of nonsense. (No not yours Chris, Harrelsons!). How the h*ll can he claim that an "undetermined" as in unmeasured or verified surface flatness of a hand lapped hone will be much flatter than that of another hone which is guaranteed by the manufacturer not to *exceed* a .001 deviance in flatness?!?!?! First off, as Harrelson has up front admitted that the .5 is nothing more than the accuracy of the substrate which has (according to his own statement) absolutely nothing to do with the surface of multiple layers of diamonds or rather a slurry of diamonds in some sort of binder and who afterwards makes no claims to have measured or made any guarantee of the accuracy of it's surface after manufacturing or for that matter after hand lapping yet there he is saying he knows (nudge nudge.... wink wink) it has to be way more accurate. After all, he's charging you nearly 6 times the cost of a DMT so it has to be better, right?!?!

Nope, I don't buy into his statements, or the "substrate" is flatter, therefore the surface must be as well. If they are laying down multiple layers of diamonds on top of this substrate, they would have to re-surface the hone in order to know what level of flatness it has. It's like pouring concrete, the substrate can be made very flat but unless you tightly control the pouring and leveling of the final top coat, the substrate accuracy is lost.

Now, lapping by hand has been done for many, many years and it is well known that it can be done quite accurately but it does require skill and must be verified by some method of measurement if you want to make some form of claim about it. Lapping or surface scraping is often measured by using a layout dye and a surface plate of known accuracy. Strangely enough, those folks skilled in lapping and or scraping surfaces to make them dead flat have to frequently check them on the surface plate to gauge their progress and help decide when they have reached a given measure of accuracy. It does not appear that Harrelson is taking any of these steps and therefore his claims are meaningless to me.

Now, if you take Harrelsons description of how he uses the DGLP to flatten hones, it becomes quite apparent that he's shooting for "good enough" and not absolute flatness and of course he is correct. This is not nano technology, a thou here or a thou there is not going to make one damn bit of difference and so sloppy, heavy handed lapping is acceptable... h*ll, it's even encouraged as after all, the more you lean on the flattening hone, the faster you'll be back to buy another hone!

Shapton Glass hones are a great product, I'm super happy with mine but Shapton can keep their over priced diamond lapping plates. The best lapping system they have is really the cast iron plate/powdered abrasive system. It's tried and true, been used for decades and is known to remain accurate to any reasonable degree if used correctly.

Regards

Kaptain "I stands all I can stands but I can't stands no more." Zero

remember hms is not the manufacturer. the compact lapping plate will not remain flat at all. The amount of pressure is less important than how and where the pressure is applied imho. However your point about returning for a new stone gave me a chuckle. He is a salesman afterall

I noticed King has some diamond hones recently, pretty expensive but their sintering(sp) process sounds very interesting.

Originally Posted by kevint

remember hms is not the manufacturer. the compact lapping plate will not remain flat at all. The amount of pressure is less important than how and where the pressure is applied imho. However your point about returning for a new stone gave me a chuckle. He is a salesman afterall

I noticed King has some diamond hones recently, pretty expensive but their sintering(sp) process sounds very interesting.

You are of course correct, hms is NOT the manufacturer but he IS the one making the statements!

The comment about the pressure relates to ones ability to control the honing accuracy, leaning on it just reduces the chances of honing evenly, just like using a dull knife with extra force is more likely to result in something not so desirable happening.

Cast iron laps if used properly *will* remain usefully flat for years, used incorrectly.... well..... there you go.

I wasn't aware of King getting into the diamond hone arena... I'll have to look into it and I've heard of another Japanese diamond hone/lap called something like Atomic or?!?!?! Apparently it's prone to rusting but works well for lapping Japanese natural hones......

Regards

Kaptain "I calls'em as I sees'em" Zero

When I was looking at buying the GDLP I talked with Harrelson about the differences between the cast iron and the glass plates. I was concerned that if I were to drop the glass it would break, He said that if you drop the iron it could go out of whack. The stone lapping side on the cast is diamond just like the glass. Here is the cast plate described on the web. I think the powder is for the iron side to true chisels. He says never to use it on the diamond side.

Atoma? mine is on a solid AL sub-base with a thin diamond plate attached to it-the plate with diamonds attaced is steel though looks plated.
I don't have a compact, only heard from those who've used them. years sounds ok. the diashrp has lasted years.

Keep us updated Chris

Just a thought, but wouldn't "putting your shoulders" into lapping a hone deform the lapping plate?

I mean, if you want to talk about absolute flatness, you have to take into acount how much force is being applied at various points on the plate.

I'd be interested to see who's stones were flatter; Harrelson's or the guys here at SRP.

Originally Posted by kaptain_zero

I'm sorry, I just can't stand for this kind of nonsense. (No not yours Chris, Harrelsons!). How the h*ll can he claim that an "undetermined" as in unmeasured or verified surface flatness of a hand lapped hone will be much flatter than that of another hone which is guaranteed by the manufacturer not to *exceed* a .001 deviance in flatness?!?!?! First off, as Harrelson has up front admitted that the .5 is nothing more than the accuracy of the substrate which has (according to his own statement) absolutely nothing to do with the surface of multiple layers of diamonds or rather a slurry of diamonds in some sort of binder and who afterwards makes no claims to have measured or made any guarantee of the accuracy of it's surface after manufacturing or for that matter after hand lapping yet there he is saying he knows (nudge nudge.... wink wink) it has to be way more accurate. After all, he's charging you nearly 6 times the cost of a DMT so it has to be better, right?!?!

Nope, I don't buy into his statements, or the "substrate" is flatter, therefore the surface must be as well. If they are laying down multiple layers of diamonds on top of this substrate, they would have to re-surface the hone in order to know what level of flatness it has. It's like pouring concrete, the substrate can be made very flat but unless you tightly control the pouring and leveling of the final top coat, the substrate accuracy is lost.

Now, lapping by hand has been done for many, many years and it is well known that it can be done quite accurately but it does require skill and must be verified by some method of measurement if you want to make some form of claim about it. Lapping or surface scraping is often measured by using a layout dye and a surface plate of known accuracy. Strangely enough, those folks skilled in lapping and or scraping surfaces to make them dead flat have to frequently check them on the surface plate to gauge their progress and help decide when they have reached a given measure of accuracy. It does not appear that Harrelson is taking any of these steps and therefore his claims are meaningless to me.

Now, if you take Harrelsons description of how he uses the DGLP to flatten hones, it becomes quite apparent that he's shooting for "good enough" and not absolute flatness and of course he is correct. This is not nano technology, a thou here or a thou there is not going to make one damn bit of difference and so sloppy, heavy handed lapping is acceptable... h*ll, it's even encouraged as after all, the more you lean on the flattening hone, the faster you'll be back to buy another hone!

Shapton Glass hones are a great product, I'm super happy with mine but Shapton can keep their over priced diamond lapping plates. The best lapping system they have is really the cast iron plate/powdered abrasive system. It's tried and true, been used for decades and is known to remain accurate to any reasonable degree if used correctly.

Regards

Kaptain "I stands all I can stands but I can't stands no more." Zero

I knew you'd be all over this, Christian. I just knew it!

Chris L

Chris,

You knew that would be like waving a red blanket in front of a bull, didn't you?

What is not funny is that you are the unfortunate one to have gotten a defective diamond plate. I would not accept a Harrelson lapped plate as a solution. DMT hones run for years and years on the same single layer of diamonds they started out with... if you have to strip a layer off after only 6 months, how long is the next layer going to last?!?!?! Oh.... and just because I'd like to know.... why does Harrelson have 10 or more GDLP's soaking in water in his shop?!?!?! Sheesh, you'd think one would be enough!

I don't know what to think of the other iron/diamond based reference plate, it would seem pretty handy for tool sharpening but for razor use it seems to be a glorified DMT with a second side that is useless to you, and the fact that they are already offering re-manufactured ones doesn't really impress me that much either. Those plates have only been around for a couple of years..... Howards DMT has been used for.... what did he say again, 6 years or more?!?!

I hope things work out to your satisfaction. As for me... it's settled, a DMT shall suffice though I might be tempted to try one of those Atoma plates I've seen.... just for fun.

Regards

Christian