Thread: Fin: fact or fiction?

Originally Posted by randydance062449

A wire edge , on razors, is a consequence of excessive honing and is actually an edge/bevel that is to thin and is disintegrating.

OK, time for my second cup of coffee,

I had the impression (before this thread started) that the wire edge you refer to was what people meant when the said a fin. Enjoy your coffee .

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I had the impression (before this thread started) that the wire edge you refer to was what people meant when the said a fin. Enjoy your coffee .

That is the part of the problem, i.e. definitions, terminology.
The lack thereof causes a lot of confusion.
Bart has made a most interesting contribution with the French definition of "fin" as being the very edge of the blade. It would be interesting to see what the German and English definitions are.

Time for me to go to the workshop,

Fin is pronounced here in the US like a fish's fingers and here means something that sticks out, like a fish's fingers. If we are going to use the French "fin" which means end to describe the end of the blade, or edge, then we should perhaps pronounce it more like the French do, which is like "feen" or like a fish's feet, which you'd think would stick out more than his fingers, but I guess not.

Please keep up the discussion, I'm learning a lot here.

Several American English definitions:

fin
n.
1. A membranous appendage extending from the body of a fish or other aquatic animal, used for propelling, steering, or balancing the body in the water.
2. Something resembling a fin in shape or function, as:
1. A fixed or movable airfoil used to stabilize an aircraft, missile, or projectile in flight.
2. A thin, usually curved projection attached to the rear bottom of a surfboard for stability.
3. A projecting vane used for cooling, as on a radiator or an engine cylinder.
4. See tail fin (sense 2).
3. See flipper (sense 2).

To equip with fins.
v.intr.
1. To emerge with the fins above water.
2. To swim, as a fish.
3. To lash the water with the fins. Used of a dying whale.

[Middle English, from Old English finn.]

fin
n. Slang.
A five-dollar bill.

German:

Flosse
Definition from Wiktionary, a free dictionary

Flosse f (pl Flossen)

1. fin, flipper
2. (slang) hand

Die Flossen hoch! - Up with your arms!

Might be better to just call it an "acutely angled corner", which is highly accurate.

edge (ĕj) The line of intersection of two surfaces: e.g. the edge of a brick; e.g. the point where a razor's bevels meet....

NM, the standard english definition of edge should suit our purposes perfectly.

Actually, a wire or burr sitting on top of an edge really does look a lot like a fin... (ref. JimmyHAD's picture)

It doesn't really apply but an American slang definition of fin used to be a five dollar bill. A ten was a sawbuck. I don't know if these are in common use anymore but they were when I was a kid.

Originally Posted by randydance062449

That is the part of the problem, i.e. definitions, terminology.
The lack thereof causes a lot of confusion.
Bart has made a most interesting contribution with the French definition of "fin" as being the very edge of the blade. It would be interesting to see what the German and English definitions are.

Time for me to go to the workshop,

The Germans use the term "Grat", dict.cc Wörterbuch :: Grat :: Englisch-Deutsch-Übersetzung
Here's a quote from the German Nassrazur site that is about the same as my personal opinion on the matter:
"Der grat müsste ja eigentlich aus plastisch verformten Metallpartikeln an der Schneidenspitze bestehen"
"The fin has to exist in fact of plastically deformed steel particles at the peak of the edge."

Honing is more than solely abrasion. One can hardly argue with that fact, because with only abrasion, it is impossible to explain bur formation during knife sharpening. Everyone that ever honed a knife, knows that bur formation is a fact. So there is more going on than abrasion alone. Honing does not only remove steel, is also displaces it. This affects the surface on every honed steel object. Steel that has been displaced in this fashion has an altered structure. It is actually harder, but also more internally stressed and prone to crack. I'm not making this up. It is a well known fact in the production process of high-precision machine parts, and such parts are sometimes thermally treated to release part of the stresses. While it is only a very thin layer of altered steel on the surface of the bevel, near the very edge there is not much more present than that surface.

Even for those that choose to dismiss these facts, the very edge has a part that is thin and weak enough to be malleable. One turn over the edge on a strop is enough to bend over this part. That is a known fact. And it can be seen with magnification. The strop does not abrade that part away. It usually breaks off when you try to bend it back. It is my understanding that the fin is also the part of the edge that is abused by the shave, and a strop is what we use to restore it, as good as possible.

Bart.

This is very cool... The definition of Grat seems to be both "fin" and "burr"... A burr does look like a fin...

Could this mean that any fin might just be a "controlled burr"?

Grat {m} [eines Messers]
edge [of knife]
Grat {m}
archi. groin
geogr. chine [of mountains]
geol. arête
geol. ridge [long hilltop]
tech. fin
tech. burr
tech. flash
tech. grout
tech. flash rubber

Originally Posted by Sticky

This is very cool... The definition of Grat seems to be both "fin" and "burr"... A burr does look like a fin...

Could this mean that any fin might just be a "controlled burr"?

My point exactly, Steve. Near the apex of the edge, there's a ratio between "original" steel and "bur-like" steel. That ratio has to be influenced by the quality of the razor, but also by the method of honing and the choice of hones and/or pastes.

Best regards,
Bart.

There is no room for opinion, some are simply misinformed. This is a mistake I made for several months. Anyone who has seen the razor's edge under high magnification knows that the edge is truly straight.

X

Originally Posted by Bart

Even for those that choose to dismiss these facts, the very edge has a part that is thin and weak enough to be malleable. One turn over the edge on a strop is enough to bend over this part. That is a known fact. And it can be seen with magnification. The strop does not abrade that part away. It usually breaks off when you try to bend it back. It is my understanding that the fin is also the part of the edge that is abused by the shave, and a strop is what we use to restore it, as good as possible.

So this I've wondered about a bit. I shave around a beard. Right at the bottom edge of the beard I come in at almost a 90* angle. The first part of the stroke begins with pretty much a scraping motion until I'm able to angle the blade. Given the above, I would expect that to completely dull/ruin my edge by folding over the malleable part. It doesn't seem to as I subsequently shave the rest of my neck both WTG and ATG without noticeable difference from the rest of my shave. The only explanation I could come up with is that when one rolls an edge on a strop, the edge cuts into the strop and as the blade is rolled over the edge gets "leveraged" by the strop surface on both sides of the edge that is sitting in the cut.