Thread: Fin: fact or fiction?

Originally Posted by Quick

So this I've wondered about a bit. I shave around a beard. Right at the bottom edge of the beard I come in at almost a 90* angle. The first part of the stroke begins with pretty much a scraping motion until I'm able to angle the blade. Given the above, I would expect that to completely dull/ruin my edge by folding over the malleable part.

Doesn't it take quite a bit of force to roll a razor edge on a strop? More than you use when shaving, surely

Originally Posted by xman

There is no room for opinion, some are simply misinformed. This is a mistake I made for several months. Anyone who has seen the razor's edge under high magnification knows that the edge is truly straight.

X

That's the correct answer to the question whether an edge has some form of microscopical sawteeth. The absence of those serrations is counterintuitive, because based upon the notion that honing is abrasion, one would expect that the scratches form a sawtooth pattern at the apex of the bevel. With coarse hones, this is in fact what happens, but at a finer level the sawtooth pattern disappears. This is more evidence that there are other factors at play than abrasion only. The region where those other factors become important deserves a proper name, and I always thought that it was "fin".

Bart.

I was once clobbered by ocd, ranting about the semantic difference between polishing and sharpening. Mr. Baldridge accurately pointed out to me that EW (edge width) is not radically reduced once the bevel is set.

Finer and finer hones serve to reduce the range of dimensions at the edge. While a coarse set bevel may have .3 micron sections there are wider sections which raise the final average EW. These are various burs, finer hones reduce their size and form creating a more uniform bur, thus reducing the average EW.

One could argue, anytime you have saw teeth there is the form of a fold over bur.

The form of the finished bur on a stropped razor is called the edge bur by John D. Verhoeven. why is there a need to call it something else?

Originally Posted by kevint

The form of the finished bur on a stropped razor is called the edge bur by John D. Verhoeven. why is there a need to call it something else?

That was my point in posting about blues player Sonny Boy Williamson telling Leonard Chess,"Call it your Mammy if you wanna". To put it another way, as Shakespeare said,"A rose by any other name is still a rose".

Originally Posted by kevint

The form of the finished bur on a stropped razor is called the edge bur by John D. Verhoeven. why is there a need to call it something else?

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

That was my point in posting about blues player Sonny Boy Williamson telling Leonard Chess,"Call it your Mammy if you wanna". To put it another way, as Shakespeare said,"A rose by any other name is still a rose".

When we're trying to understand the true nature of things, semantics are very important. If we don't agree about terminology, how can we have a meaningful conversation? On the individual level, where an harmonica player plays his instrument, it does not matter if he uses do-re-mi or c-d-e, but as soon as he tries to share his knowledge with others, he has to use conventional terms.
I don't care if we talk about "very edge", 'edge bur", or "fin". But I am certain, if the original poster would have started a poll "edge bur: fact or fiction", the discussion would have been the same. In the end, I hope to be able to use a term that doesn't need further explanation every time I use it.
I still like the word "fin". It avoids the negative consonance of the word "edge bur", which also uses two words, where "fin" is only one. At the same time it establishes a sense of difference from the body of the edge, something that is not as clear with the use of "very edge" (again 2 words).

I think the original poster should have asked: "Does the fin has a Y-shape?" (without poll, 'cause the truth has often little to do with democracy)

Originally Posted by Bart

When we're trying to understand the true nature of things, semantics are very important. If we don't agree about terminology, how can we have a meaningful conversation?

Very true. Maybe some agreement will come out of this thread.

I think the very way one hones a straight prevents forming a fin.
always a V, never a Y
When honeing with the blade leading the way along the stone the fin is always getting cut off..
the opposite is happening with a knife when you draw with the back leading along the stone and form the fin/ burr or whatever you want to call it.
In stropping I can see where you are trying to take the edge of the bevel to the smoothest possible condition for shaving pleasure, but at such a fine grit, .05 it hardly does any fin forming.. just polishing of all the existing surfaces mostly
I'm sure if one reversed the honing procedure and drew the blade along the stone with the spine leading you would see a MAJOR fin in a very short time..
however I for one would not want to shave with it.

Originally Posted by tpoof

I think the very way one hones a straight prevents forming a fin.
always a V, never a Y

This is like saying "cars cannot fly, therefor cars do not exist". I agree that a fin has not the last part of a Y-shaped edge. That doesn't mean there's no such thing as a fin.

Originally Posted by tpoof

When honeing with the blade leading the way along the stone the fin is always getting cut off..
the opposite is happening with a knife when you draw with the back leading along the stone and form the fin/ burr or whatever you want to call it.

A bur forms also when you hone a knife with the edge leading, this is not something that only happens when the back is leading. It is true that the bur grows larger, when honing in the outward direction.

Originally Posted by tpoof

In stropping I can see where you are trying to take the edge of the bevel to the smoothest possible condition for shaving pleasure, but at such a fine grit, .05 it hardly does any fin forming.. just polishing of all the existing surfaces mostly

The principles of bur formation are present. They don't just disappear when they stay below our visual threshold.

Originally Posted by tpoof

I'm sure if one reversed the honing procedure and drew the blade along the stone with the spine leading you would see a MAJOR fin in a very short time..
however I for one would not want to shave with it.

Some people hone razors completely on pasted strops, starting with compound above 5 micron, all the way to .5 micron. They shave with those edges. I think the ratio between plastic deformation/debris deposit and abrasion leans more towards the former two, at the apex of such edges. That may have a negative influence on the longevity.
I think we all shave with a bur, even if it's a short one.

We shouldn't think so negative about burs. A well tuned scraping steel relies solely on a bur for its task. Any skilled woodworker will testify that such a bur is capable of producing beautiful shavings and can be quite durable, if properly formed.

Bart.

I think the ratio between plastic deformation/debris deposit and abrasion leans more towards the former two, at the apex of such edges. That may have a negative influence on the longevity.

LMAO

Originally Posted by tpoof

LMAO

Huh?
Have I made a joke? Written something with a double meaning, that I'm not catching myself?
Or are you just laughing in my face, in utter disagreement?
I wonder.

Bart.