Thread: Why lapping film rules

Originally Posted by FloorPizza

If anyone is interested in taking the lapping sheets down to .1 micron (which I'm now addicted to), try this: 3M(TM) Diamond Lapping Film 661X, 0.1 Micron Sheet, 5.5 in x 5.5 in, 25 per inner 250 per case, distributed by R.S. Hughes - Industrial Distributor - Tapes, Adhesives, Abrasives, Safety, and Electronic Products

What progression do you use to get there? i.e. do you jump from 1 micron to 0.1 micron?

Thanks for the link FloorPizza that is an outstanding site.

Thanks for this thread guys. It is one I have read since the beginning and when I have a difficult razor I always end up here. I have come to realize that the final polishing of the razor does not make it sharper but smoother and get some really outstanding shaves. I personally have not used films in the past excep for difficult razors but I am becoming a convert.


Thanks,
Richard

This Lapping film sounds great, the only thing I'd be worried about is consistency. If your like Lynn, Glen and Max, etc.. and do honing professionally, it would get expensive. It doesn't seem cost effective. Hones last, and from what I read, you get 10-12 uses per sheet? So, I guess the level of consistency drops with subsequent honings, where they do not on an Escher or Nakayama. However, It'd be great for keeping your own collection good to go. Me, I hardly ever hone since I've started using a Swaty, Seriously. My blades tend to stay shave ready. If needed I go to the hard pressed wool with .5 Diamond Spray from SRD, and I'm good to to. I realize you can only do that so much before you do need to hit the rocks.

Do you need a USB microscope to look at your edges, or can you go by feel. The edges under Seraphim's microscope are impressive to say the least, What are the shave's like. I irritate if I use .25 Diamond Paste, so should I stay away from Diamond lapping film altogether?
In any case, it seems quite a few people are interested.

Can we get something in the WIKI to explain what's what, I.E. 5 UM = 4000grit aprox and 1 UM = 8000 grit aprox.
Also, Could the film be wrapped tightly around a DMT plate to hone on it? Can a piece of marble be used in lieu of glass?
Also, how many lapps is recommended on each, do you go by feel or what.....it would be nice....A complet idiots guide to film lapping...

Originally Posted by zib

This Lapping film sounds great, the only thing I'd be worried about is consistency.............. I irritate if I use .25 Diamond Paste, so should I stay away from Diamond lapping film altogether?
In any case, it seems quite a few people are interested. ........

I have found that they are very consistent and that would make sense because one of the uses is polishing fiber optic ends in communication. I would think that the particle size should be very consistent for any give sheet. Cost is high and I personally don't plan on using them on the higher grits. I love my Coticule and 16K Shapton but I have always been a 4 sided pasted strop guy with a finish of Chromium. I can see changing over to films for the 0.5,0.25,and 0.1. For me, honing has been an evolution and refinement of the end product is very evident to me.

If you look at an edge in the light without magnification after going just to 0.25 film you will notice a brilliantly reflective edge that I have not seen on any razor that I have done with just a pasted strop. I am in the process of shaving off 0.1 micron film, Aluminum Oxide not diamond, and I can tell you it is an awesome shave. As is being discussed in another thread about whether a razor can get to sharp Mparker762 makes a valid point, backed by research, that all you are doing after about the 4K mark is polishing the edge. I find that the 0.25 diamond paste on the pasted strop is harsh just like you do but, I find that shaving off a 0.3 film is not even in the same league. I would submit that my pasted strop will not have all the same size particles on them per given side, contamination for one thing, thus the harsh edge. The spray is probably a different matter but I would imagine that on a hard felt strop it is excellent because the particle size is very consistent in the spray, just a guess since I have not tried it.

I have learned a tremendous amount in the last month or so, about honing with conventional hones. I am also seeing, once again, material science is giving us tools to accomplish edges that were not obtainable on a straight edge until recently.

Thanks to this forum and its members for always pushing the envelope and thinking "outside the box". If you listen and keep your eyes open you can learn a lot here because the talent and combined knowledge that is offered here is quite astounding!



Take Care,
Richard

Originally Posted by zib

Can we get something in the WIKI to explain what's what, I.E. 5 UM = 4000grit aprox and 1 UM = 8000 grit aprox.
Also, Could the film be wrapped tightly around a DMT plate to hone on it? Can a piece of marble be used in lieu of glass?
Also, how many lapps is recommended on each, do you go by feel or what.....it would be nice....A complet idiots guide to film lapping...

Its already there:

Using micro abrasive film - Straight Razor Place Wiki

You could use polished marble if you wanted to Its just more expensive than the glass. You wouldn't want to "wrap it" around anything for use it needs to be perfectly flat on a smooth surface.

Originally Posted by matt321

What progression do you use to get there? i.e. do you jump from 1 micron to 0.1 micron?

I go from .25 diamond paste to the .1 micron film. BUT, you can go from pretty much anything to the .1 micron, and just use it to polish the edge that you have. However, just be aware of the fact that if you have, say, 8k scratches in the bevel, you're not going to be able to remove them with .1 micron. It's best to get the scratches down to a small size that the .1 micron can effectively remove. Like .25 micron.

Originally Posted by riooso

Thanks for the link FloorPizza that is an outstanding site.

Thanks for this thread guys. It is one I have read since the beginning and when I have a difficult razor I always end up here. I have come to realize that the final polishing of the razor does not make it sharper but smoother and get some really outstanding shaves. I personally have not used films in the past excep for difficult razors but I am becoming a convert.


Thanks,
Richard

Couldn't agree more, Richard. The final polishing really affects the smoothness of the edge/shave. Not the sharpness, per se.

Originally Posted by zib

This Lapping film sounds great, the only thing I'd be worried about is consistency. These lapping films are meant for polishing optics. They are *very* precise. They have to be, or the optical quality of the lens would suffer greatly. If your like Lynn, Glen and Max, etc.. and do honing professionally, it would get expensive. Yup, it does get kinda pricey. Eventually, you'd be into it as much as a Japanese finishing stone. Which is the logic I'm trying to use with the wife to get her to allow me to *get* a Japanese finishing stone. The film is so very smooth, that you can't really feel it to tell when it's getting worn out like you can the bigger micron sizes, you have to go by how harsh the edge feels during the shave test. Visually, the bevel/edge looks the same amount of "shiny" off of the .1 micron as it does off of the .25 micron using a 100x radio shack microscope. It doesn't seem cost effective. Hones last, and from what I read, you get 10-12 uses per sheet? That's about right, 10 -12 uses per sheet. So, I guess the level of consistency drops with subsequent honings, where they do not on an Escher or Nakayama. No, not really. It just takes longer to get to the final level of polishing... more strokes, but the end product is the same. However, It'd be great for keeping your own collection good to go. Me, I hardly ever hone since I've started using a Swaty, Seriously. My blades tend to stay shave ready. If needed I go to the hard pressed wool with .5 Diamond Spray from SRD, and I'm good to to. I realize you can only do that so much before you do need to hit the rocks.

Do you need a USB microscope to look at your edges, or can you go by feel. I've been going by the feel, but the USB microscope would be a great tool to really compare the difference between, say, a .25 paste and the .1 micron film. The edges under Seraphim's microscope are impressive to say the least, What are the shave's like. I irritate if I use .25 Diamond Paste, so should I stay away from Diamond lapping film altogether? Try it, you'll LOVE it. You aren't really increasing the *sharpness* with the .1 micron, you're just cleaning up the really small jaggies and irregularities in the edge, which *greatly* decreases the harshness. It's an order of magnitude smoother than than the edge you get off of .25 micron. And at 5 bucks for a sheet, the cost of entry is money well spent if you like it, five bucks lost if you don't. At any given level of sharpness, using the .1 micron to finish is just going to make the edge smoother, not sharper. So what I'm getting at is once you've found the level of "sharp" you're comfortable with, you can immediately go to the .1 micron film (or any good finisher like an Esher or Japanese) and polish that level of sharpness to get rid of the imperfections, which will make it much more smooth, although it will not remove the scratches of anything more than .25 micron.Think of it as a "turbo charged" strop; it's able to actually knock off the little jaggy pieces of metal (that are responsible for a lot of irritation/harshness) and increasing the smoothness of an edge at a level that a strop can't quite reach. Then following the .1 micron with a good stropping... oh, man... you guys are in for a treat.
In any case, it seems quite a few people are interested.

Can we get something in the WIKI to explain what's what, I.E. 5 UM = 4000grit aprox and 1 UM = 8000 grit aprox.
Also, Could the film be wrapped tightly around a DMT plate to hone on it? Can a piece of marble be used in lieu of glass?
Also, how many lapps is recommended on each, do you go by feel or what.....it would be nice....A complet idiots guide to film lapping..Wild Tim already did a fantastic guide to using film for sharpening. I honed my first razor by using his instructions to the letter. Great stuff..

Many good answers already.

5-6um=~4000 grit
3um=~8000 grit
1um= ~16,000grit
0.3um =~30,000 grit?

As with anything, there are pluses and minuses to the films. I LOVE the way they feel when honing on them, very velvety smooth, and they cut through any steel with ease. The downside is obviously that they have a limited lifespan.

I'll have to try the 0.3um again. My latest try resulted in alot of weepers. When I went back to 1um, that cleared it up. YMMV, etc...

Any advance on the topic?

I tried the diamond film and liked it. It cuts very clean and consistent, and your hone is always dead flat. Downside was it is expensive and it wears out. When you grab a used piece from the shelf you wonder if it is still good or not.

The non-diamond film is much more reasonable in cost. I haven't used it much to know if it works as well.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

Many good answers already.

5-6um=~4000 grit
3um=~8000 grit
1um= ~16,000grit
0.3um =~30,000 grit?

Hi,
Do you compare it to natural stones or whetstones?