Thread: Verhoeven Paper Question

I read the section on stropping and hand honing. I guess after that I have several questions that were not either answered or addressed.

1. He stated that regular leather strops had no effect on smoothing the edge, but that a regular leather strop with Chrom Ox had a great effect of smoothing the edge. I assume that he used cow hide because he stated that he used commercially available leather from a shoe store. What about Horse hide, Latigo, Russian leather? Aren't they all leather? Is he stating that any leather, when treated with chrom ox, is better than leather alone?

2. He never stated that he took the edges to a good cutting edge, shave sharp or otherwise, did I miss this section?

3. It seems that the waterstones with Nagura gave a better result than the man made stones. If this is true then why would I buy a Norton 4/8 besides the money?

4. Why was he going for a smooth bevel? I thought it was the edge that cut? Does the smoothness of the bevel translate to a better edge? Couldn't you have a smooth bevel and a rolled or otherwise blunted edge?

5. He stated that the Japanese stones worked best on 60 Rockwell stainless. Does anyone know what the Rockwell of carbon blades are?

6. He used a compound bevel for his edge 9 degrees more on the 600 and 7 degrees more on the 1000. Is a compound bevel useful on a str8? How would one place a compound bevel on a str8? Electric tape comes to mind to adjust the angle.

Thanks guys.

Here is an interesting thread discussing that article.

Edit; Ooops. not "that " article but Verhoeven comes up in the discussion.

That handles the stropping part. Thanks. So Verhoeven was right that the strop has no or very little abrasive qualities. What a strop does is to remove the weak metal from the edge of the blade there by restoring the actual edge.

Now onto the the other parts.

Originally Posted by singlewedge

That handles the stropping part. Thanks. So Verhoeven was right that the strop has no or very little abrasive qualities. What a strop does is to remove the weak metal from the edge of the blade there by restoring the actual edge.

Now onto the the other parts.

What I focused on in that thread was mparker's post here . This is the post that has influenced my stropping routine since I read it some time ago.

He also was using ashort paddle or bench type strop, if I remember correctly. I think it would have been intereting to see what the difference would be between that, and a full lengtgh hanging strop where some speed is built up on the edge, as opposed to a slow strop on a bench strop.

I have on several occasions experienced that blades improve with stropping. IIRC Verhoeven looked at the blades under the mike. If he does not see any difference that does not mean there isn't a difference. He concludes stropping does not do anything because he sees no change. However we experience a change so that only means there's a difference he can't see with the techniques he used.

I agree with Kees completely. I think every one of us to a shaver would agree there stropping improves edges. Some may argue that stropping possibly only improves edges by removing any rust/oxidation at the edge level and doesn't improve the steel per se. I don't agree. Certainly stropping removes microscopic level rust/oxidation. But I think it's improving the edge. I think it's manipulating the steel. I keep my razors in a very dry environment and dry my razors very well after a shave and don't feel there is significant if any rusting going on at edge level of my razors between shaves. Stropping during shaves improves the edge; barbers have been doing that forever. Is the edge of a razor a barber is using actually rusting during the shave which results in the barber (or anyone else who strops mid-shave) feeling the edge has degraded and needs to be stropped? I think there's more going on there.

Chris L

Originally Posted by singlewedge

I read the section on stropping and hand honing. I guess after that I have several questions that were not either answered or addressed.

... clipped

5. He stated that the Japanese stones worked best on 60 Rockwell stainless. Does anyone know what the Rockwell of carbon blades are?

The Rockwell scale is an attempt to standarize the measurement of hardness. It is independent of the kind of steel used. So comparing stainless vs carbon steels, if the Rc is 60 then there is no difference, in as-measured hardness, for both steels.

Now, there are micro-hardness testers that are capable of testing the hardness of individual carbide crystals in a metal lattice. When we get into that kind of fine testing, then the chromium carbides in stainless can be different hardnesses when compared to simpler iron carbides in carbon steel. And vanadium or molybdenum and tungsten carbides and so on. But even then, a very hard carbide in a softer surrounding matrix is better measured with abrasion resistance than either general hardness or individual carbide hardnesses.

I think the subjective measures used by the honemeisters and customers here should also have some play in "how it cuts". I think Dr. Verhoeven was looking at the general concept of a knife blade rather than the razor. There are clear differences that have to be accounted for in angle and intended cutting performance that are not addressed 100% in an article about knives.

It would be very interesting to see razor-profiled blades subjected to CATRA (corrected mis spelling on my part) testing. Sharpness tester

Originally Posted by Chris L

I agree with Kees completely. I think every one of us to a shaver would agree there stropping improves edges. Some may argue that stropping possibly only improves edges by removing any rust/oxidation at the edge level and doesn't improve the steel per se. I don't agree. Certainly stropping removes microscopic level rust/oxidation. But I think it's improving the edge. I think it's manipulating the steel. I keep my razors in a very dry environment and dry my razors very well after a shave and don't feel there is significant if any rusting going on at edge level of my razors between shaves. Stropping during shaves improves the edge; barbers have been doing that forever. Is the edge of a razor a barber is using actually rusting during the shave which results in the barber (or anyone else who strops mid-shave) feeling the edge has degraded and needs to be stropped? I think there's more going on there.

Chris L

I only know that I can take a razor that doesn't cut hanging hair and do my 50/50 and then it does. Not always but a lot of the time.

Chris, down here in the tropical climate of FLA I have to be extra careful regarding rust. I have been in the midst of honing a razor and taken it over to the microscope and found rust beginning on the bevel that couldn't be seen with the naked eye. Not mine anyway. That is why I always strop a dozen on the horse after the shave and use a rust preventative after that. An ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

He also was using ashort paddle or bench type strop, if I remember correctly. I think it would have been intereting to see what the difference would be between that, and a full lengtgh hanging strop where some speed is built up on the edge, as opposed to a slow strop on a bench strop.

Just re-read the post and I have the impression that he was referencing use of a hanging strop but I may be wrong. I was wrong once before.