Thread: Bevelsetting on a Coticule.

Originally Posted by Chris L

I'd really like to see a closeup shot of the edge after bevel setting or finish honing.

Here you go: the finished edge, same spot as the initial picture.

That's exactly what I was hoping to see. Thanks Bart. I could look at pictures of sharp crisp razor bevels all day. Yeah, I know, I'm weird.

Chris L

Bart, were you using more pressure in setting the bevel then you were using in the video ? Inquiring minds want to know.

Originally Posted by Lynn

Thanks Bart,

That level of perfection in an edge, I'm afraid is never ending puruit.

I have used both the blue and coticule and have never had any consistent success with either except for the Coticule with a light slurry and a coticule with just water.

Lynn,
Thanks for dropping by. I have noticed before that we both have a somewhat different approach to the Belgian hones.
It took me a long time to figure out what you meant with your “less is more” adage to honing. It was only after I purchased some synthetic water hones that I could see the applicability of that. The principles of doing few laps never really applied to my use of the Coticule and Belgian Blue. Although I tried it on more than a few occasions, I never really got decent results.
Perhaps finishing on the Coticule with water excluded, I really don’t think the Belgian Naturals are the best available tools for the honing professional. Today’s market offers hones that are faster and more reliable for repeatable consistency of results. I would like to make a comparison with another passion of mine: fine woodworking. I like to finish my surfaces with vintage-style hand-planes, that I like to restore and tune (and occasionally also build) myself. Apart from lending a unique sheen to a surface, it is mainly just a very satisfying activity. But a craftsman with any significant production would commit economical suicide using these obsolete methods, other than perhaps in his own leisure time.
I think there’s a similarity when you compare Coticules and BBWs to, let’s say, the Shapton honing system.
Every Shapton you buy, will always be the same. Belgian Naturals will not.
Any given Shapton progression will yield repeatable results in a narrow target zone. Honing on a Coticule is certainly more adventurous than that.
I am no honing professional. I simply offer a honing service, because it allows me to hone razors, without the need to actually buy them myself. (I was rapidly honing my small personal razor collection into oblivion) . Even if someone would invent a small apparatus that could hone a straight razor to absolute perfection, I'd still be using my Coticules. I'm a romantic nostalgician when it comes to many things worthwhile in life.

My long-winded posts about the Coticule and BBW are certainly not inspired by a sense of superiority. I'm fully aware that there are faster hones, faster methods, sharper razors.

Originally Posted by Lynn

What did you use to build the level of thickness in your slurry depicted and can you show the razor that generated the dark slurry after the 20 minutes.

I build the slurry with a small piece of Coticule. The thickness was just the tickness of coffee milk. The razor is owned by a well known member here. It does not carry any stamps or markings. I believe it's just a high carbon steel razor, like 13 in a dozen. I have to PM the member tonight, I'll ask him to chime in here with the details of that razor. The darkeness of the slurry was what I always get when I need to do more than 10 minutes of bevel work, using a Coticule.

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

My question is , after watching your light touch on the hone is it safe to assume you use considerably more pressure in setting the bevel on the coticule and that the video showed the finishing rather then the bevel setting stroke ?

Yes, I did perform a number of one-sided laps with slight pressure. (not a lot, let's say about the pressure you use to push tooth paste out of a tube). I may have done 50 laps on one side, flipped the razor and did 50 laps on the other side. Then I continued with the kind of strokes you see in the video. After maybe 20 of that, I checked with the TPT, and decided I did not needed to perform additional one sided honing. I think that was about half way during the entire bevel stage.

Bart.

Bart.

Originally Posted by Dups

So if I get this right...with a lot of patience one could eventually hone a razor from scratch using nothing but a coticule. Starting with heavy slurry followed by some more slurry slowly diluted with water only?

After completing the bevel on a Coticule, I always progress into a stage where I raise a bit of fresh slurry and dilute it, as described in one of the previous posts. I have a stone that gives an approximate success rate of 1 to 4. I haven't figured out yet how I can get more consistent results. Perhaps I need to find "THE" Coticule to do it. Perhaps I can fine-tune the method for more consistency at some point? Right now, it often feels like some kind of sport. I have good days and bad days, and I generally "know" it when I'm at a winning streak, and I also notice when I'm loosing it. It's hard to explain.
But whatever happens, if the results are not keen enough, I'm at least granted with a great bevel for stepping up to the Belgian Blue or the Choseras.
My quest for honing a razor on one Coticule alone, is probably my main reason for doing the bevel correction stage on a Coticule in the first place. I just need to have my clear shot at it. Every honing is another new promise to me. Is that a crazy thought?

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by kevint

Bart.
I had no idea you were a plane man. That's great.

I never liked counted lap descriptions because there are so many sizes of hones, i thought time spent might give a better indication. Now I see that is flawed as well. the speed of your stroke is easily double maybe 3 times as quick as what i do.

I wanted to see the finished edge for comparison, just like Chris. thanks.

What is it we are seeing?-looks like it is not quite there.

The cot in your pics looks as yellow as a shapton 1k. Does the color give any information on the qualities or suitability of a given stone for a specific task.

You are seeing the edge, as I have test shaved with, honed and finished as described earlier in this thread. I consider this razor ready to be send back to the owner.

I have noticed in another thread, that you seem to emphasize much more on polishing the bevel sides than I do. That razor is finished on a Coticule with water, and it looks just like any edge of mine.

I agree with you about the lap counts, although I usually do provide newbies with laps counts (except for bevel formation), so they have at least a starting point.

About colors of Coticules: I really don't know. Word 's been spread that pinkish Coticules are fast (mine is), and that greenish are great finishers (I don't really know about mine). I think Ardennes should offer a selection hand picked Coticules, tested individually and sold with a report. I'm going to visit the quarry later in the spring, and I hope to do some selection then.

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

On the speed of my laps... I guess it makes a difference for setting a bevel on a coticule in a reasonable time frame, but I'm surely not stretching myself here. I always felt I needed to add some swiftness to the strokes, in order to get them as light as possible. But my first concern has always been to maintain good and consistent contact with the hone. It's just like stropping (but kind of in reverse). Speed is something that comes with doing it a lot.

I never thought about that. You're right, now that you mentioned it, it's rather similar to stropping. If I can strop really fast, I might just approach honing the way you hone - one handed, light fast stroke.
The only problem I see about honing like this is that being the hone narrower than the strop (My TM 3'' strop Vs. 1.5'' stones) I'm afraid the razor will balance and won't keep flat on the stone.
Now that I just finished honing my last Filly tonight, I don't have any razors left to practice this new approach!I'll have to wait for my razors to get dull.

Originally Posted by Bart

Is that a rhetorical question?

...I have the same dilemma in my capacity of recording engineer/producer: I prefer the organic sound of old jazz recordings, but mostly I have to deliver more "radio-friendly" work than that.

Bart.

That's music to my ears Bart - if you'll forgive the pun! I know it's a bit OTT, but I'm a jazz fiend too - I play my old LPs on a gyrodec through valve amplfication - bliss!

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by Bart

Is that a rhetorical question?

Because you can do 70-100 laps on a real light slurry, finish with the same amount on a Coticule with only water, and get a great shaving edge.
What's in my previous post, using the Chosera 5K and 10K, aims at a bit more final keenness. I offer honing services, so I'm trying to make a slight difference.
I know several guys that happily shave off the Blue/slurry - Coticule/water progression. I often do so myself. It's just that, when honing for others, I feel the Naniwas give me a larger landing zone, because the 10K leaves sharpness to spare.
On a side note: ever since I arrived at SRP, I feel there is an increasing demand for more sharpness. I'm not sure that's always a desirable course, and I usually aim for the edge that discerns best between whiskers and skin. For me personally, that might very well be the BBW honed edge. But for sending out commissioned razors, I like to err on the keener side. I have the same dilemma in my capacity of recording engineer/producer: I prefer the organic sound of old jazz recordings, but mostly I have to deliver more "radio-friendly" work than that.
Dups asked how I finished the job on that razor. Please don't read that as a rejection of the BBW.

Let me guess... It was a rhetorical question, right?

Bart.

Well, let's just say it was and leave it at that.

Bart, I like the cut of your jib. Thanks.