Thread: I need advice on a crumbling edge.

Originally Posted by Utopian

I just noticed in the photo that the distance between the edge and the arrows held by the eagle are drastically different on the opposites ends of the arrow. Bart, is that an accurate indication of the extent of metal removal between the two ends of the blade?

No, the arrows in the drawing are in perspective (the eagle is carrying them in his claws), hence they're not parallel to the edge.
When I got it the blade was slightly wider at the toe, which I have often seen on these old-style razors. Since the problem is at the toe half, and I have removed the crumbled part of the edge 3 times, the blade is about symmetrical now. (I have lost about 1.5mm off the toe) I need to solve this rather soon, or there will not be a cripple eagle somewhere...

Bart.

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I'm wondering, if perhaps you were to remove a couple layers of tape instead of adding more. Then when/if the bevel gets a bit wider, you may have an idea of just how far the pitting goes.

The spine on that razor is not very even. I started with 3 layers of tape. Having any less, would create wide, uneven bevel sides, that would probably run into the eagle. Spine wear would be equally wide and uneven. When honing for others, I try to keep the blade as close to the original condition as possible.
Besides, I'm fairly convinced it would only worsen the problem.
But thanks for the suggestion. Sometimes I tend to overlook obvious solutions to a problem. I nice to receive such abundant advice.

Best regards,
Bart.

I've had a couple of wedges that behaved like this. One is taped with 3 layers of tape, the other with no tape. The bevel angle seemed irrelevant to the crumbling but I was lucky to get to fresh steel after about 3 or 4 attempts. Both razors were fairly pitted but I think the problem is compounded by very hard steel.
I know your opinion of pasted strops but I wonder if they may be useful on such brittle steel. I succeeded with my coticule tho.

I had something a little similar today - looked fine off the coticule until I looked at it under the loupe - part of the blade near the heel was crumbling. Back to a lower grit to get into what I thought was good metal, finish on the coticule - not much improvement. I went through the entire process 3 times before I remembered the post Jimmmy mentioned, so I backhoned once more and finished on the Tam followed by a really hard coticule rob at Ardennes sorted out for me - that solved the problem. I think it was the Tam that was the star, though. Sad, really - it looked like it was going to be a 20 minute job - the blade looked so good beforehand bar one little flea bite (in the problem area - typical!).

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I've given your statement some thought, and I have a few things I'd like to mention.

Lessening the tape would make a larger bevel, but it won't have any affect on the spine at all, as you say it would {highlighted in red}, unless of course you removed all the tape.

I was obviously speaking about honing without tape, how else could there be any spine wear... You' have to give me at least a bit of credit.
My experience on these wedges so far, has been that the bevel width runs totally out of control, if the spine is not properly raised with a few layers of tape. Once a bevel shows serious width variation, it starts to behave strangely on the subsequent hones, because on the wide parts, the honing action is very slow (due to the spread out of pressure over a larger surface) and faster at the smaller parts. I've run into that kind of trouble before, and I don't want to go there anymore.

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I'm not so sure the problem would be worsened, rather you'd have an idea of the extent of the crumbling edge/blade, and you'd know whether or not further honing would be futile.

The chunks missing would be a bit larger (what i meant with "worsened"), but what would it tell me? I've reset the apex three times to a line behind the damage. Each time the new edge becomes thin enough, the problem reemerges. I don't see how having a wider bevel could make a difference other than making the edge weaker than it already is. I also don't see how it could tell me where the good steel (if any) begins.

Best regards,
Bart.

Bart, I hope you find good steel soon. You say you've already lost 1.5mm.
I don't know how much trouble you & SidneyK want to go to but on one of my W&B's, I took rather extreme measures.
It was a hell of a lot of work that could just as easily have been a failure so think twice if you consider it..

First I took a picture of the etch to be engraved later. I then reground the blade to about 6/8 width from the previous 7/8 losing the etch . I used a wet grinder . Very slooow. After sanding & polishing I had the etch 'engraved' ie cut into the blade. I could not find someone to do an acid etch so it is no longer original looking more a 'custom' look..
I mentioned hard steel before. It took the engraver 4 passes with his diamond tipped machine. There were only fonts to be matched so I'm not sure about doing an eagle but I imagine it's possible as it is a computerised process.
It still took a couple of attempts with 3 layers of tape for honing but I was lucky & it came good.
I only mention this as a last resort if it comes to that. I'm not sure I'd even try it again.

Thanks to all, for sitting this one through with me.
I have been working another two hours on the blade yesterday.

I first honed the almost complete bevel with 5 layers of tape on a Coticule with slurry, using only a light handed X-stroke. By the time it was ready, there was a lot of crumbling present on the problem half of the edge, but the missing chunks were smaller than before. I removed the crumbling once more, added 3 layers of tape (totalling an outragous 8 layers) and completed a secondary bevel. The edge crumbled again, but with less missing chunks, even smaller than before. I took the razor to my Nakayama, ended up doing several 100's of laps, but eventually I got an edge that only had a few rather shallow chunks missing and a few anomalies as showed in my first post, yet smaller.
Following Onimaru55's suggestion, I took it to a pasted strop. I currently only have CrO on a loom strop. I adjusted the loom strop for some slack and did about 100 laps (checking every 20) and got a completely straight edge. Probing with the HHT gave good resutls, so I attempted a test shave.
The razor shaved, but with significant pull. Probably due to the increased bevel angle. What's worse, is that the shave itself introduced significant damage to the compromised part of the edge, although I only performed a partial shave with the blade and didn't even went ATG. (The non-compromised part of the edge showed no damage at all).

I can probably lower the amount of tape and still sneak up very gently to a sharp and straight edge, but as long as it's not in decent steel, the problem with the edge being ripped apart from the impact with whiskers, will persist.

I think the only viable option is to keep searching for sound steel.
I'll have to talk to Sandy, asking permission to remove more steel.

Thanks,

Bart.

Finding solid steel is about the only option for making it usable.

Bart (and others)-

I guess the question you ask lies completely in another area. Do you use the razor as a collectors item or as a functional tool?

Now there is no right or wrong answer in my opinion. Different strokes for different folks. I have to ask myself: do I want to use this particular razor as a tool to shave with, regardless of result OR do I want to forego the use of it in favour as a collectors item.

I used to think of myself as somewhat of a collector. When I started straight razor shaving I went through a mad splurge of buying loads of nice razors. I would kid myself that I could make a rotation. Truth be told though, I have only ever used the Dovo Black Star that I also sent Bart to hone. The W+B was the first one that I had bought and was so pleased with that I actually wanted to shave with it.

So there is my answer: I want to use the W+B as a shaving tool. Do I care if you have to go through the eagle? To be honest not really. If you can help it i'd rather you didnt, but given the choice between a razor that looks good and doesnt shave and a razor with some aesthetic defects that shaves well i'd prefer the latter.

Bart even if you have to go straight through the design I dont mind. If the flaws run so deep that there is no good steel there then so be it. It is a beautiful razor, but as with so many things in life it is just a posession and you cant take it with you when all is said and done.

If you feel you need support from others then by all means send it to someone else. I have faith in you however. Look at it as a project of sorts if you like. Bart vs the W+B. Guys your continued help is always appreciated here.

Take care, and all the best buddy,

Sandy

Thanks for that Sandy.

I will try to make the razor serviceable.
If I had any doubt at this moment, that there was something else to do than removing the compromised steel, I would be sending a PM to Glenn or Lynn right now. And I really call upon anyone who thinks there should be tried something else, to post here or PM me about it.

Tomorrow I'll remove 0.5mm of the edge and complete a new bevel.
I can still do this 3 times, before I start honing into the Eagle's feet. Let's hope I can hit sound steel before that.
I'll keep you posted.

Bart.