Thread: ONE COTICULE HONING

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Slightly Sorry Bart

I just can't wrap my brain around the thought that a slight duller razor can somehow be more comfortable/ smoother.....

maybe I am just reading what you guys wrote wrong

I believe it is because we are all different and I agree with Bart

since I occasionally travel to the Netherland for work, I bought a Hess Ezy-shaver which takes personna blades, I thought that this would be ideal for traveling.

When I first shaved with it I was very cautious and respectful of the blade, i was amazed at how well it "glided" and the shave was great, until....... 30 minutes later my face was on fire

now maybe I used to much pressure, maybe my angle was wrong, maybe I got too confident, I cant pinpoint it, but I can tell you the result were unpleasant. I have found that a few of the razors I purchased off the forum were the same way, and after inquiring as to the honing method, I found that the diamond honed razors were the ones irritating me the most.

So I guess this all falls under personal taste, YMMV, skill level, etc...but this is why I am thrilled with Barts method, because NOW I have confidence in myself to know that I can put an edge on MY razors that give ME a great shave, and I control the whole process I hope this explains why "scary sharp" may not always be the best level for everyone

since I just got a Thuringian and an Escher, I will be experimenting even more, but again it was Bart's method that really boosted my confidence to realize that there is hope for heavy handed honer wanna-be's like me

OK I hate to say this but you guys have actually talked around the question I asked...

So lets go back for a second and let me ask directly...

Are you guys saying that and edge sharpened to .47 microns is going to be less irritating than a blade sharpened to .45 microns????? Lets leave DE blades out of the equation and stones used to get there on a straight because again we are talking about the sides of the edge not the edge itself.... With DE's the coating could effect the shave comfort.... and on the straight the polish could effect the comfort... But again I can't wrap my brain around how a slightly duller blade shaves more comfortably than a "Scary Sharp" one...

Now if you were to say that you liked the polish off one stone better than another I could understand that.... That is a personal thing, I get that....

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Are you guys saying that and edge sharpened to .47 microns is going to be less irritating than a blade sharpened to .45 microns?????

I'm not speaking for "the guys" only for myself. I find an edge off of a coticule comfortably sharp and smooth for shaving. I find it sharper yet and still comfortable if I hit some licks on an Escher following the coticule. I find an edge honed on my Shapton 15k sharper yet but not as comfortable. In this post here Lynn describes Thuringans as being,"on par with my coticules" but not as good as his Eschers. So to me Lynn is saying that he gets a better shave from an Escher than from a coticule. I know I do from mine. Seems to me that not all hones leave the edge feeling the same to the skin nor are all equal in sharpening even if close in grit. BTW, did anyone say dull or duller ? I agreed with too sharp but that doesn't mean that I am advocating dull.

Originally Posted by currentman

I found that the diamond honed razors were the ones irritating me the most.

So I guess this all falls under personal taste, YMMV, skill level, etc...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Now if you were to say that you liked the polish off one stone better than another I could understand that.... That is a personal thing, I get that....

+1 to Jimmy Had, I was trying to get that across , but He was far more eloquent

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

BTW, did anyone say dull or duller ? I agreed with too sharp but that doesn't mean that I am advocating dull.

Now that makes sense!!!! TY Jimmy I can understand the "Too Sharp Feeling" that is a smoothness issue and people could feel a difference on different stones because of the polish of each stone..... I get that....

What I was reading was that the edge was actually to sharp, and that was what was not clicking with my limited grey matter.....

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Now that makes sense!!!! TY Jimmy I can understand the "Too Sharp Feeling" that is a smoothness issue and people could feel a difference on different stones because of the polish of each stone..... I get that....

What I was reading was that the edge was actually to sharp, and that was what was not clicking with my limited grey matter.....

Glen, after you've been around awhile you will start to get to know all of these finer points.

JimmyHAD running and ducking for cover

Hey Bart... have you found that the same coticule will cut different razors at different speeds?

As I was saying before, when I was setting the bevel on the duck, the same coticule was getting darkened slurry after 10x, and after 30x it was very dark. With the T hessen bruch, it would darken after 30x to the point that maybe 8-10x did on the duck.

Just tonight I was working on a Clauss that actually had the bevel very close already (was basically shave ready, but not by me, and not up to my standards, so I dulled it on the beer bottle to re-hone it), and it was still taking forever. After ~75 strokes, I could barely detect that the swarf was darkened at all. My thinking that this lighter slurry was in fact cutting slower seemed to be confirmed when it really was taking longer than expected to get it shaving arm hair again. I probably did ~150 laps before I gave up with the coticule and went to the dmt 1200 which made very short work of it. I then proceeded to add the layer of tape for the double bevel and go back to work on the coticule as normal. To be fair here, though, I was taping the spine from the get go as this Clauss is quite minty without a single lick of hone wear and I decided to keep it that way. This would, I guess, create half the swarf of having the spine exposed (as I did with the duck and thb), but still, the coticule was taking forever and the dmt just cleaned up here in no time flat. I don't know if it's applicable, but I figured I would mention that the bevel on this Clauss is really narrow. Which I would have initially guessed would lead to quicker honing times due to the pressure per square inch when honing.

Have you noticed anything like this? Just some razors that are very stubborn on the coticule? I had one the other night that I was playing with that also was taking a good long time to move steel (this is all with the same coticule BTW) and I had to give up on it because I didn't really have time to be playing with honing in the first place. That was the first time I noticed the slow cutting, but I was waiting to post about it to see if it was just that one razor or what, but now that I've had another act this way, my curiosity is rising.

It would almost seem like some razors, for whatever reason (hardness?), just don't take kindly to the coticule, making it kind of unreasonable to set the bevel on one. Not that it's not possible, more that it would just take (IMHO) an unreasonable amount of strokes. But on the other hand, some set very quickly and effortlessly.

I guess this is why they say that certain razors demand certain hones?

That's me after the shave I got off my DA this morning. Took it from breadknife to a barely usable edge using another method, then dulled it and got it to a DARN FINE SHAVE with the one-coticule method. Fantastic! (Although I must admit, I added a 12k Shapton pro to help it out...I think the DA has a bit of a steel problem, it just wasn't that smooth off the coti...)

Thanks, Bart!

Originally Posted by gssixgun

OK I hate to say this but you guys have actually talked around the question I asked...

So lets go back for a second and let me ask directly...

Are you guys saying that and edge sharpened to .47 microns is going to be less irritating than a blade sharpened to .45 microns????? Lets leave DE blades out of the equation and stones used to get there on a straight because again we are talking about the sides of the edge not the edge itself.... With DE's the coating could effect the shave comfort.... and on the straight the polish could effect the comfort... But again I can't wrap my brain around how a slightly duller blade shaves more comfortably than a "Scary Sharp" one...

Now if you were to say that you liked the polish off one stone better than another I could understand that.... That is a personal thing, I get that....

Yes, for my personal c0cktail of shaving technique, skin type and beard, the edge coming of my Naniwa Chosera 10K is too "sharp". This edge almost sucks itself through my whiskers. I can come to a full stop on the hardest to shave spot on top of my skin and start the stroke again, without even the need to pay attention. Unfortunately, this kind of keenness slices right through my hair papillae, leaving what I believe is often referred to as "weepers", randomly spread over my face.
If I "tone down" that edge on a Coticule with water, that resolves that situation for me. Perhaps I need to pay a very tiny bit more attention on my chin, but I get an equally close shave, with no real sting on the alum block, and I also don't get the fuzziness on my cheeks that builds up after a number of shaves with more aggressively finished razors. BUT: as I said earlier, my shaving technique has over time completely blended with the kind of edges I prefer.

For other people the same may be true for edges finished on a Shapton 16K, a paddle strop with 0.25 micron diamond spray, a Swaty barbers hone, the Norton 8K, or whatever.

I have not started this thread to claim superiority for Coticules. But I do claim that I could sell all my other hones (except my DMT 325 and 600) and be a happy shaver for the rest of my life. That thought has crossed my mind.

I hope that answers your question directy enough.

It's an interesting topic you brought up, Glen.

Kind regards,
Bart.