Thread: ONE COTICULE HONING

Originally Posted by pjrage

Bart, I'm not trying to suggest that the DMT 1200 is better than the coticule or anything like that, I'm just pointing out some findings I've had with this method so that others might know what to expect. I hope you don't think I'm trying to drive us off topic that the DMT 1200 is a better bevel setter or anything like that, or that it fits into this method or whatever, I was just using it as a point of reference of how long I worked the coticule and how long I worked the DMT, and what the results were.

I very well may have been 30 laps from home so to speak, but I really don't think so. I was seeing virtually no improvement of the edge in 30 stroke sessions. I was doing x strokes the entire time (no back and forth strokes). I didn't purposely water down the slurry at all, but I do end up adding some more water over time which does water it down a bit, and eventually I would refresh it. I don't use the slurry circling technique yet and after 50 or 60 strokes, I feel the need to refresh the slurry because some of it has fallen off the sides causing the stone to dry out a bit. I actually lose quite a bit of slurry when I rinse the blade too as the blade seems to hold a bit of slurry in the hollow grind. Anyway, from completely dulled, I DID detect some improvement, but it seemed no matter how many strokes I would do, I couldn't get it shaving arm hair or passing the TNT to my liking.

Just a few thoughts, IME the DMT E is a better bevel setter than the coticule with slurry in the sense that it is faster. Mine is a well broken in continuous 8" plate. I wouldn't say it is better in the quality of the scratch pattern it leaves and that will require more work to clean up on the next level but I still find that it is faster overall.

In setting bevels back and forth strokes and circles are also going to increase the speed of the job. A really efficient way to remove steel.

If I am going to rinse the blade and I want to save the slurry I hold it vertically over the hone and just touch the water with the point and most of the slurry and water clinging to the hollow runs onto the hone. Then I rinse.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Just a few thoughts, IME the DMT E is a better bevel setter than the coticule with slurry in the sense that it is faster. Mine is a well broken in continuous 8" plate. I wouldn't say it is better in the quality of the scratch pattern it leaves and that will require more work to clean up on the next level but I still find that it is faster overall.

I tend to agree with you, based on my particular coticules, but I think Bart was hoping to refrain from discussing (in this thread) which hones or honing processes may be "better" and stick strictly to speaking about how to implement the one coticule honing method successfully.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

In setting bevels back and forth strokes and circles are also going to increase the speed of the job. A really efficient way to remove steel.

I generally will use some circles or back and forths if I'm planning to remove a lot of steel, but as I mentioned, this particular razor had a bevel which was 90% there already, and it was 100% set before I dulled it, so it didn't need much work, and since it was so narrow, I expected to (re)set the bevel very quickly. I guess this added to why I was so baffled when the coticule wasn't performing as I expected.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

If I am going to rinse the blade and I want to save the slurry I hold it vertically over the hone and just touch the water with the point and most of the slurry and water clinging to the hollow runs onto the hone. Then I rinse.

Great tip! I'll have to give this a go, as I think I lose the most slurry during the rinse and check. Especially on hollow ground razors.

Originally Posted by pjrage

I tend to agree with you, based on my particular coticules, but I think Bart was hoping to refrain from discussing (in this thread) which hones or honing processes may be "better" and stick strictly to speaking about how to implement the one coticule honing method successfully.

I generally will use some circles or back and forths if I'm planning to remove a lot of steel, but as I mentioned, this particular razor had a bevel which was 90% there already, and it was 100% set before I dulled it, so it didn't need much work, and since it was so narrow, I expected to (re)set the bevel very quickly. I guess this added to why I was so baffled when the coticule wasn't performing as I expected.

I think Bart would agree that if it is discussed it should be discussed as Cromwell wanted his portrait i.e. , "paint me as I am, warts and all". Just as positive testimonials are appreciated an alternative view should be presented if there is one IMO.

Just so I am not misunderstood, this is not negative criticism of Bart's method with the single coticule. I think Bart has preformed a real service in this thread to those who have one or more coticules but do not have a BBW or other hones. I have been thinking for some time about all of the barbers over the years who were using the yellow coticule as their main hone and Bart has worked hard to demonstrate that it is not only doable but effective. Personally I don't have the patience to stick with that when I have the DMT E to set bevels and the blue with slurry to get sharp before the yellow with water only to finish.

Another interesting point to me is the dulling of the edge on the glass. I remember when Bart presented this. It was a way of being sure that you were starting from scratch so to speak and that you weren't getting false positives in the TPT or HHT. In watching Harellson Stanely hone in the DVD "Honing The Perfect Edge" he goes beyond dulling on the glass. Rather he very gently and with finesse breadknifes the edge on the hone before he begins using his "side honing method".

When he gets to the 16K glass stone level he does it again ! Then he works with the 16k before moving on to the 30k. I was intrigued when Harellson did this before the honing began but I couldn't believe it when he did this at the 16k level. I spoke to him about it on the phone and he told me that if you were to look at the edge under 200x even past the 8k level you would see some micro chipping that needed to be cleaned up. Mind blowing to me and glad I only have 30x.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I think Bart would agree that if it is discussed it should be discussed as Cromwell wanted his portrait i.e. , "paint me as I am, warts and all". Just as positive testimonials are appreciated an alternative view should be presented if there is one IMO.

I only meant that he probably doesn't want this thread taking a detour to "which hone is the best for setting the bevel" land, which would be deserving of it's own thread if we decided to go there, IMO.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Another interesting point to me is the dulling of the edge on the glass. I remember when Bart presented this. It was a way of being sure that you were starting from scratch so to speak and that you weren't getting false positives in the TPT or HHT. In watching Harellson Stanely hone in the DVD "Honing The Perfect Edge" he goes beyond dulling on the glass. Rather he very gently and with finesse breadknifes the edge on the hone before he begins using his "side honing method".

When he gets to the 16K glass stone level he does it again ! Then he works with the 16k before moving on to the 30k. I was intrigued when Harellson did this before the honing began but I couldn't believe it when he did this at the 16k level. I spoke to him about it on the phone and he told me that if you were to look at the edge under 200x even past the 8k level you would see some micro chipping that needed to be cleaned up. Mind blowing to me and glad I only have 30x.

Wow, that is an interesting concept! I would horrified if I saw someone do that, lol. The theory sort of makes sense, though, I guess.

I actually haven't tried dulling a razor on the side of a hone, but I can say that with the glass, for whatever reason, it dulls it FAST. I'm talking if you take a shave ready edge and do one stroke with just the weight of the blade, you'd be lucky if it still shaves arm hair. Two or three strokes and there's no way you're shaving anything. The edge of the hone must work a little slower, or his touch is very very light, because at that stage, at least with glass, the slightest amount of pressure would ruin all the work you've done.

Originally Posted by pjrage

I only meant that he probably doesn't want this thread taking a detour to "which hone is the best for setting the bevel" land, which would be deserving of it's own thread if we decided to go there, IMO.

Wow, that is an interesting concept! I would horrified if I saw someone do that, lol. The theory sort of makes sense, though, I guess.

I actually haven't tried dulling a razor on the side of a hone, but I can say that with the glass, for whatever reason, it dulls it FAST. I'm talking if you take a shave ready edge and do one stroke with just the weight of the blade, you'd be lucky if it still shaves arm hair. Two or three strokes and there's no way you're shaving anything. The edge of the hone must work a little slower, or his touch is very very light, because at that stage, at least with glass, the slightest amount of pressure would ruin all the work you've done.

I was aghast when I saw him do it at the 16k level. That is one reason I telephoned him. For those who don't know Harrelson is the USA distributor of Shapton and a noted honemiester of Japanese tools particularly plane irons. I would also note that he had only honed a few razors when he made the video for what that is worth. He was applying his "side honing" method to straights. I have tried it and in some circumstances it might be preferred but I find I like the x stroke better.

As for dulling the razor, I have never done it on glass. I have applied Harrelson's light with finesse breadknife technique on a razor if under magnification it had visible micro chips but other than that I will take my chances with the edge as I find it. Not trying to hijack the thread it seems that one thing leads to another.

I have that dvd on side honing and the jointing method he says hes sculpting the blade. Like you jimmy i much prefer the x stroke.I personaly did'nt learn any thing from the technique

Originally Posted by gary haywood

I have that dvd on side honing and the jointing method he says hes sculpting the blade. Like you jimmy i much prefer the x stroke.I personaly did'nt learn any thing from the technique

Gary, I don't want to divert Bart's thread anymore than I already have so see this new thread here.