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Thread: Fun with Verniers calipers and tape

  1. #21
    Electric Razor Aficionado
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    IIRC Tim Zowada made an angle measuring device from Verhoeven's description, and measured the final bevel on Feathers to be 25 degrees.

    Armed with this I got with Josh Earl and had him make me a wedge with a 25 degree honing angle (the final razor came out to about 24 degrees, 25 degrees with a couple layers of tape) and it shaves just fine.

    My NOS-when-I-got-it Wonderedge has a pretty steep honing angle as well, it's about 18.7 degrees IIRC.

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  3. #22
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    Oh I see, thank you.

    Now is there a way to adjust the spreadsheet to german tape thickness?

  4. #23
    At this point in time... gssixgun's Avatar
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    After measuring several NOS razors in my collection, and having a friend run the angles, done rather quickly, and not accurately at all, we found that they are all over the place, we will each measure some more to make sure of this complete non-compliance of any semblance of order...... We will both use calipers on the next batch of measurements, also and see if in fact these angles truly are all over the place...

    Although the the fact that I have a few that have the same spine width and vary from 6/8 to 4/8 on blade widths kinda tells me that my initial thought was correct.. and the angles are all over the place....

    Oh BTW these all shave,,, regardless that the angles are all over the place....




    BTW electrical tape thickness is determind by the protection factor it has,,,, thicker tape more resistance to electricity.... I have seen it from 3 mil -10 mil 3m is 7 mill though
    Last edited by gssixgun; 06-28-2009 at 03:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gssixgun View Post
    After measuring several NOS razors in my collection, and having a friend run the angles, done rather quickly, and not accurately at all, we found that they are all over the place
    I suspect that this is a major contributing factor to the fact that, in my limited experience, each different razor has a very different feel and level of effectiveness. Of course, as you said, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on what the "best" is, as we all have our preferences.

    The ideal bevel angle for me, and the ideal bevel angle for you may be quite different. I still hope we can distill something universally useful out of this. It's too interesting of a topic to go to waste.

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  7. #25
    Advocate of Occam mrgad's Avatar
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    For anyone following this thread who might be confused:

    3M = company that makes tape
    .3mm = 3/10 of a millimeter
    3 mil = 3/1000 of an inch

    1 mm = 39.4 mil
    benhunt likes this.

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  9. #26
    At this point in time... gssixgun's Avatar
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    So after some math lessons from Lee we started dialing up razors, we did about 8 each ranging from brand new to slight hone wear....

    We found that all the ones we did tonight fell between 13 and 19 degrees

    We had mostly hollow grinds to check and there was no correlation between blade size and angle that I found....

    Look forward to hearing of everyone else's measurements...

    Also.... what about smiling razors????
    the big choppers???? that vary on blade width???
    That we just measured, and found to be 14 degrees at one end, and 18 degrees at the other, but we use a rolling stroke and we make this an even bevel ?????

    So many thoughts.... so many mysteries to solve... I think I'll go hone some razors instead....
    Last edited by gssixgun; 06-28-2009 at 02:12 PM.

  10. #27
    50 year str. shaver mrsell63's Avatar
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    Question Edge degree

    We old guys always thought that the manufacturer designed the spine thickness to allow the correct bevel angle to occur naturally, simply by keeping the edge and the spine flat on the hone while honing. If this is true, it should also be true for wedges. Why would a razor manufacturer design an incorrect spine thickness into razors that are his bread & butter? We have a basic issue here; the ratio/proportion of the spine thickness to the blade width. This issue should be resolved at the time of manufacture.

    Someone should check with a manufacturer on this point. How about Tim Zowada or one of the other razor makers. They should be in the know on this issue. It seems to me there is a bit too much conjecture here. Are there any books on the subject of razor design and/or design theory?? I have always relied on the spine thickness and one or two layers of " sparkafication " tape for a decent shaving edge. K.I.S.S.............. JERRY
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  11. #28
    Never a dull moment hoglahoo's Avatar
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    I gotta say I wouldn't know how to tell from the quality of a shave whether or not any of the razors I shave with are being negatively affected by a less than perfect bevel angle. I'm just not that good. If a shave is subpar, I check three things: beard prep, razor sharpness, and technique. If it comes down to razor sharpness, I check for a good stroke on the hone. Then I hone it sharp. Always. There are a few I haven't been able to get sharp yet, but their bevel angles fall within these same ranges.

    Anyway, here are some bevel angles from razors I shave with, just for fun

    A Glen-honed Hess 99 6/8 full hollow
    15.38 degrees a half inch in from the toe
    15.38 degrees a half inch in from the heel

    A Lee-honed Hess 99 5/8 full hollow
    16.37 / toe
    17.08 / heel

    A Lee-honed Rodgers wedge, 7/8+ at the toe, 5/8 at the heel *
    13.82 / toe
    17.11 / heel

    A Lee's brother-honed 559 Wedge 4/8 wedge
    17.84

    A Lee-honed stamped Wapi (5/8 quarter hollow)
    17.51

    A Lee-honed Heljestrand 6/8 extra hollow
    16.96

    A Lee-honed Webster & Johnson 6/8 wedge
    16.09

    And lastly, a Joe Chandler honed Rodgers 9/8 half hollow (shave readiness not yet verified - anyone got any scales they want to loan me? )
    15.78

    I also measured two other razors I am currently attempting to sharpen but am not quite there yet with either of them:

    A Waterville 4/8 full hollow, thinnest spine on any razor I own
    14.18

    A two hundred year old Wostenholm 5/8 wedge - probably the wedgiest razor I own as the spine wear very nearly meets the bevel at the toe
    18.46 / toe
    18.38 / heel

    I have no idea what these numbers mean, but it was fun getting them

    I used analog calipers good to 1/1000" and measured spine width against blade width (from cutting edge to back of spine wear, letting one point of the caliper touch the cutting edge and one point touch the back of the spine wear) at the same points along the razors, halved the spine width, and then I found the inverse sine of the quotient and doubled the result.
    *
    Quote Originally Posted by gssixgun View Post
    Also.... what about smiling razors????
    the big choppers???? that vary on blade width???
    That we just measured, and found to be 14 degrees at one end, and 18 degrees at the other, but we use a rolling stroke annd we make this an even bevel ?????
    Glen is referring to the Rodgers wedge I measured that is almost 15/16 at the toe, and about 6/8 at the heel. The spine was the same thickness near the toe as it was near the heel so the bevel at the toe is actually much steeper than the bevel at the heel. What does this imply? does it matter? beats me
    Like I said, how do I know the bevel angles aren't falling out of an optimum range? I don't. If I am having trouble honing or shaving, bevel angle is just the last thing I think of. If I use tape, it's so I can make better contact with the hone, not so I can pull the bevel angle into a more acceptable range. If all else can be held equal, I would love to know what difference bevel angle makes to a shave, but I'd have to be convinced in any such proof that other factors introduced when creating and refining that bevel such as steel type, tempering process, honing technique, depth of striations, grind type, hone type, left hand, right hand, type of lube on the hone, type of tool used to lap the hone, how many strokes were used, consistency and constancy of various in-hone tests being performed, etc etc etc were held constant throughout the entire process. And then stropped the same way on the same strops in the same humidity after the same strop warm up, yada yada yada. And then shave tested on the same skin, same shaving technique, lather quality, etc etc etc. Otherwise I will probably always view it as just a cool bit of trivia and not really worth looking at unless perhaps a razor has been severely damaged and the edge has receded significantly into the blade or the razor was mishoned with the spine lifted way up
    Last edited by hoglahoo; 06-28-2009 at 06:21 AM. Reason: fixed calcs
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  13. #29
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    In truth, it's actaully more complicated with that.

    On a basic level, I agree with you. The spine thickness IS set to help keep a consistent bevel angle, and if a razor needs no correction, honing without tape would seem best to me. (True wedges may be a different story, and may differe from one manufacturer to another)

    On the other hand, if a razor has been honed many times, especially by an ameteur, the spine may have thinned faster than the edge, due to the placement of the tang relative to the width of the blade.

    If that's the case, you would need to hone with tape until you had returned to the "proper" angle.

    Or, the edge might have warn faster, in which case only regrinding the razor could correct it.

  14. #30
    Never a dull moment hoglahoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsell63 View Post
    Someone should check with a manufacturer on this point. How about Tim Zowada or one of the other razor makers. They should be in the know on this issue. It seems to me there is a bit too much conjecture here.
    I agree! Robin, could you check on that for us?
    Quote Originally Posted by BeBerlin View Post
    I also checked Tim Zowada's site, and his razors sport a 15° angle.
    Thanks buddy
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