Thread: Abrasive Grit Comparison Sheet

Originally Posted by Smokintbird

The JIS information in this list did originally come from your page first!

I have since referenced most of the information from http://www.metallographiebedarf.de/d...oesse_fepa.pdf
and from another manufacturer, though a firefox crash before I thought to book mark it has kept it out of the references...

But, they both corroborate your figures nicely.

Cool, you've been digging too! I presume you've seen Verhoeven's paper on knife sharpening with the scanning electron micrographs of waterstone edges and the effects of stropping? http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads...nifeshexps.pdf
The pictures are very informative and way better than I can get with my light microscope.

Originally Posted by 0livia

Certainly not, but your page might be the source for the guy who gave it to me.

Oh, no problem. There were just some questions about the validity of your JIS numbers and it was obvious they came from my second grit page so thought I'd better explain where I originally got them and the numbes for the Shapton stones. They are accurate as far as I can tell without spending about $60 to download an English pdf from the JIS organization themselves.

Looks like you've combined stuff from many sources including Abrasive grit sizes of belts, wheels and stones used in knifemaking, sharpening and woodworking which seems very handy, though the print gets a bit tiny (like Steven Wright said... "You can't have everything.... Where would you put it? " )

So how did you end up here? Have I seen you on another board somewhere? I know there is another Pam who used to hang out on Shapton USA's board. I got into hones and stones because it is the intersection of my interests in geology, metallurgy and Japanese sword polishing (can't afford to mess with those but Japanese cutlery comes close. Never thought of razors other than that they fit on my microscope a lot better than a deba )

Originally Posted by Smokintbird

After spending more time digesting this (JIS grit table for Japanese water stones in microns (electrical resistance method)) chart you posted.....

That is quite some variance! With variance numbers like that concerning the 97% rule and the 3% possible maximum.....That kinda sucks!

but, like jendeindustries said, you have answered some questions... Thank You!

Yeah, that does explain a lot but some makers seem to grade tigther than the specifications which is nice... Shapton seems fairly consistant an Naniwa even more so, at least in their Snow White 8k and ceramic SuperStone series.... haven't tried their new Chosera stones yet though I hear they are the cat's meow. Alas, I already have half a dozen different 8k stones alone or I'd order a set of them! (BTW, I've admired the stone ponds Tom has over on Jende's page for years too, though have never managed to talk myself into one )

Anyway, while on the subject of hones,
I ran into someone over on Blade forums about 4 years ago and we were talking about a company in Moravia Iowa that made "Frictionite" razor hones in the early 1900's.

Anyone know if anyone has ever duplicated these (I know they sold the recipe but the original buyer was unable to duplicate them) or found anything that works like them? I've always wondered how they would compare to a natural Japanese stone.

Originally Posted by yuzuha

.....Looks like you've combined stuff from many sources including Abrasive grit sizes of belts, wheels and stones used in knifemaking, sharpening and woodworking......

I first started this spreadsheet as a result of seeing an earlier version of that list, I even borrowed the formatting from it, but you will notice that not all of the information on that page correlates to mine.....I found many inaccuracies (or typos), lots of things didn't jive with other lists I found....which is why I started making sure that I could reference all of the information I provided in mine....

Originally Posted by yuzuha

....Anyway, while on the subject of hones,
I ran into someone over on Blade forums about 4 years ago and we were talking about a company in Moravia Iowa that made "Frictionite" razor hones in the early 1900's.

Anyone know if anyone has ever duplicated these (I know they sold the recipe but the original buyer was unable to duplicate them) or found anything that works like them? I've always wondered how they would compare to a natural Japanese stone.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...different.html

Pages 5 and 6 mention the same hones and might have some info you don't have on the Frictionite hones.....I know nothing, just remembered seeing the name.

Originally Posted by Smokintbird

I first started this spreadsheet as a result of seeing an earlier version of that list, I even borrowed the formatting from it, but you will notice that not all of the information on that page correlates to mine.....I found many inaccuracies (or typos), lots of things didn't jive with other lists I found....which is why I started making sure that I could reference all of the information I provided in mine....

good idea... I've seen a lot of lists that don't jive too. especially with micro-abrasive powders (lapidary places generally list diamond powder by mesh but is that the same thing as grit? Doesn't seem like it half the time)

Other times I wonder how you measure the size of a needle of silicon carbide... by the thin dimension or the long dimension or the average of both, or do they estimate its volume and figure the radius of a sphere with the same volume (or is it the diameter... does Norton list the diameter rather than the radius so list numbers twice what they should be, or do they really use larger grit than they should but their binder makes up for it, since I hear that their 8k actually does not polish as well as a true 8k but better than than another stone of the same micron size).... enough to drive you a bit bonkers some days

Frictionite is a good barber hone but it is not on par with a Nakayama or with a Shapton Pro or Naniwa IME. They are around 4"x2" and have one side finer than the other. Good to refresh a razor but I wouldn't try sharpening a Japanese sword with one.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

OK let me see if I have this correct here,,,,

My GS 8k is a way higher grit then my Norton 8k????

My GS 4k is too high a grit to sharpen a razor I have to drop to my GS 2k????

My Norton 8k is almost the same as shaving off my GS 4k????

Did I sum that up correctly????

OK unfortunately this GS is calling BS at this point in time...

oh wait I found the line I was looking for in the small print....

It is impossible to make

exact comparisons between all the different abrasives because different standards are used for average, minimum and maximum size, the percentage allowed outside

those limits, and the distribution of sizes within those limits, but this list is the closest comparison available since all entries are compared to microns by their respective manufacturers.


Don't forget the how does it feel factor here, Shaving is what really separates the men from the boys so to speak when it come to honing..
This also does not take into account the tricks of the trade...

I am really just having a very hard time swallowing that a Norton 8k is closer to a GS 4k then a GS 8k
I guess I am going to have to try a shave off the GS 4k... I will post back soonest....if it shaves anywhere near as good as a Norton 8k I will stand corrected....

Update:

Ya know I was going to do a ton of writing at this point...
Lets just say I did some testing, and I'll just say that you should too....
Your face can be the judge....

I have used the Naniwa super stones with a 3/5 pyramid and shave tested. The results appear to me to be equal to a Norton 4/8. I have done this with two ebay razors so far. I have further refined the edge with the 8k and gotten a slightly smoother somewhat keener edge. This is with the Naniwa superstones.

Ron has my Shapton pros and is going to try pyramiding the 2/5 (they don't make a 3k). So if my suspicion is correct with the pros the 2/5 will yield similar results. I know that with the pros when I set a bevel on the 1k I used to really like to follow with the 2k. I really liked the performance and feel of the 2k.

Following that I would do pyramids on the 5/8 and it seemed to take longer than it would have with the Nortons. Had I been using the 2/5 instead I think I would have been pleased with the results. I think that would have been the way to go with those based on the grit charts.

Whatever the label is on a hone be it 4k or 8k the size of the microns would determine the performance ....... wouldn't it ? I know Tom (jendeindustries) mentioned the shape having an impact and I am sure that it does. All we can do is try them and see what works. I am completely open minded to that.

Well, I just got off the phone with Hirohisa Ogawa at Naniwa (Lynn and Don, if you read this, he sends his regards) and he sent me an information sheet about their standards for abrasive size (specifically for silicon wafer cutting--an odd coincidence, as I work at a company that does just that). It would appear that they use the standard JIS regulations. He said that this is the same for all their products, including the Super Stones, so I guess there it is.