Printable View
Thanks howard for your participation. Your experience is most welcome and will add depth to our little project. Time and personal preference always play into how one likes their blades finished. Hopefully we can learn and collectively get a better idea about sharpening in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard
Mike
Actually Adam, there is much evidence that microbevels make edges last longer and much easier to maintain, but who knows with razors? That is what makes this so fun. As Howard pointed out that some claim Tim's razors lose something along the way but that is not in a theorie realm, more or less a observation. Also, keep in mind Tim does a fair amount of development after the fact so it is different than just comming off the hone like we are doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by northpaw
As Lynn told me earlier, you can't expect these to be "Supermen" of edges. Remember what is new to us may not be to everyone else. We should temper our excitement with realism and not set expectations so high on what we are doing which by the way is ONLY an alternative to the finishing of good bevel that many learned how to do here at SRP.
Finishing will always be a personal choice, some like diamomd paste others CrO other many combinations of those. At best, this method may appeal to some others not. Some will need to tame it down with pastes etc. But we will leave that for later.
Personally, I really like them and so far are working for me. As mentioned they are simple to do and repeatable. Simple works for me right now:(
Mike
Day 2:
So I've used the razor twice that I put the 30k microbevel on. I stropped before today's shave, and the shave was pretty much the same as yesterday's. The razor is VERY sharp. I still think I prefer the edges I get finish with a Nakayama (no micro-bevel), but I will still try this razor until the shave quality diminishes. It removes hair very easily and the shave is quite good. The difference between this edge and the edge off of my Nakayama is hardly discernable, so this method definitely produces a nice edge with the one razor I've used it on. The bonus with this method is that it's very quick. I bet you could even get away with 5 strokes on the 30k to produce the microbevel since you're only honing away a small portion of the bevel. IIRC Lynn recommends 5 laps on the 30k to start out with, so I think that would be enough on a micro-bevel. I'm just speculating, so it's totally up for debate. :D The razor I used is a Spike Union Cutlery btw. :)
So I think the real question everyone is wondering about is edge longevity. Well, that we will have to wait and find out for! Will report back.
mind sending me these stones for verification purposes?Quote:
The difference between this edge and the edge off of my Nakayama is hardly discernable
Seriously, I am eager to participate in this micro experiment, but I'm waiting for a razor or two that needs a bevel reset, I only have honemeister Max's bevels laying around at the moment and one of my own that is perfect. Don't fizz with lizz, dizz?
2nd shave:
Pretty much what Dave said above: I stropped before this one, and the edge was still raring to go and gave a great shave. Will continue to report.
Day 2
I am using another Challenge Razor from the same start time as Dave and Adam to keep on the same page. I looked at edge after each shave 100x mag, to look for microchipping or edge deformation. Shaves and looks pretty much the same as day 0. Stropping only after shave (2 or 3 passes) on mine ever so lightly because I like to and to dry off edge.
The hardest part of this will be look at my Sheffield Steel and not use them. They watch me as I shave and I hear them yellling "pick me, pick me)
Also this is more of a study than an experiment for the geeks who are interested. Just having fun.
Mike
Alright, I finally did it! I ended up doing up 2 razors this way.
I started off with the Bismark, but I ended up trying something different, that didn't really adhere to the requirements of this test, but up to 16K, then 30K with tape - 15 strokes. I also did up a Torrey properly, and then the MB at 30K with tape - also 15 strokes.
The Bismark was much happier than it has been the past few weeks. I will admit that because I didn't follow the experiment with it, I did diamond .25 on felt and CrO2 6x each before the shave. It was a good shave - not the best I'd had from that razor, but certainly in the top 5.
The Torrey, was quite nice, indeed! No stropping, and it went wtg and atg with no problems. My face is quite smooth, as it should be. I think 15 strokes may have been too much for the Torrey, but since there was some warpage and uneveness to the spine, I wanted to make sure I got all the areas of the blade.
The comparison: While I have shaved off the 30K without the micro bevel and now with the micro bevel, I honestly didn't really feel much difference in the shave results - the BBS I've been getting has been quite consistent since joining the SRP. The feel of the razor on the face was ever so slightly improved with the micro bevel. For edge longevity, that test has just begun.
I noticed that I needed to hold the Torrey at a slightly higher angle than usual, since I don't normally use tape, but that was not a big issue and did not interfere with the shave.
:D
In absolute terms, a secondary bevel is stronger, as already mentioned by Kevint. The very edge caries a more obtuse bevel angle, which is stonger. There's no escaping that.Quote:
Originally Posted by northpaw
BUT... The edge is most likely also keener. Why, you might wonder? If you use a very fine hone such as the 30K Shapton, to finish a single bevel, the edge will most likely not reach the sharpness limit of the hone. Two principles that deny the hone's full potential:
1. the bevel is so wide that the hone has not enough abrasive power to remove the layer of steel that needs to go in order to reach the limit that the hone can offer. You could try to compensate for this by doing many, many laps. Not sure you'd ever get there. It depends on the hone.
2. There can be suction between the bevel flat and the hone's surface. As a result, the very thin part of the outer edge can start to flutter. This is a hypothesis, based upon an observation I have made time and time again when looking at magnified edges (40x): the bevel looks completely polished, but the very edge has a small region of a less polished nature, that wasn't there when the edge was less sharp. Some might suspect overhoning, and you can call it what you want, but honing on a small secondary bevel has never led me to make such an observation.
So far what happens at a single bevel. On a narrow secondary bevel:
1. On such a narrow strip, the hone can work its full potential. As already said, the edge is made buy nothing else than that hone. You can really reach the hone's physical limit.
2. No suction, no fluttering of the very edge. As said, on a narrow (micro)bevel, I have never noticed the above occurrence that seems to hold back the very edge from further development.
Because of those differences, the secondary bevelled edge is most likely the sharpest you can ever get off the hone used to cut the bevel. How keener the edge, how more fragile it is and prone to quickly loose performance. Since you guys are talking about a Shapton 30K (which I do not own) I can only imagine that you are talking about the sharpest edges around. I don't think you can expect those to last forever and a day. Furthermore, any woodworker will confirm that an initially deteriorating ultra-sharp edge falls back further than a somewhat less sharp edge that holds up. For that reason in certain woodworking appliances, edges are sometimes pre-dulled in a controlled manner. I don't know if any of this applies to shaving whiskers.
Whenever I need to test a hone, cutting a secondary bevel with it, is always one of my test procedures. It tells a lot about how keen an edge that hone can deliver and how skin friendly that edge is. The more tape you use, the quicker the secondary bevel will hit the hone's keenness limit. Yet I like to use as little tape as possible, because I don't like edges with a really obtuse angle.
Great thread. Sorry I have no 30K to add more data.
Best regards,
Bart.
Bart,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
That was very good insight and made me understand how the secondary bevel reaches the poential of the hone. I wish you could join the group. On the falling back of the edge in woodworking, that does happen all too quickly. Moreover, the sharper it is to begin with the sharper the "working" edge is after it has fallen back. Also the duller and less defined the edge is to start the more force is required when working an edge subjecting it to chipping faster. That is why I am going to call this a study Vs Experiment, if that is OK with the participants because there are too many variables to wrap my head around.
It will be a learning experience for sure. Thanks again for the insight and making it so clear as to why the hone is doing what it is doing. Bart,that by far was the best explanation I have ever heard in regards to this phenomena and stokes our understanding of honing .
Mike
Thanks for the excellent post Bart. I have experienced the flutter too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
Your mention of purposely dulling a sharp edge brings to mind the practice of some DE shavers of 'corking' Feather blades to take a bit of the edge off. (no pun intended)
Having noticed that they were frequently smoother on the second shave the idea of running them lightly over a piece of cork is practiced by some guys.
For me Jimmy,There is a learning curve shaving with the blades finished like this. It is a real light touch and a little less scything. But light touch is the biggest difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Mike
Day 3:
Not really much different than Day 2 or 1......So it's obviously holding up. I stropped on linen and leather (well, vegan leather :)) before-hand. It left my face a little raw, but I just washed my face instead of showering, so my beard-prep wasn't as good tonight. Nothing too exciting, it shaved well and is still really sharp! I really don't think it's a better shave than a usually sharpened edge finished up to a high grit, at least I really don't notice that much of a difference. :shrug:
If it holds up for a while, that would be good. It seems that the jury is still out as to whether a microbevel will make the edge last longer or shorter, and all I can tell you is that it lasts for a least 3 days for the 1 razor I've tried it on. My conclusion: I have NO idea how long it'll last. I'm just a test dummy. :D
My entry into this "study" will remain incomplete for now, but in the mail came an Engstrom frameback, a rather thin specimen with the brass frame cylinder. I spent about 2 hours cleaning it and polishing it (with a new technique I shall share elsewhere), then spent another 2 hours honing it. I could have sped up the process with pressure, but I wanted to remain diligent about using little/no pressure until ALL the micro chips were gone.
Removed chips on 325 grit, set bevel on 1k, sharpened on 6k, polished on 12k, added tape, repolished on 12k with 15 laps. Wouldn't break hair so I had to strop, now it splits hairs silently like a nice frameback should in all but one spot (er, um, I'm relatively new at this?).
I'm going to wait a few days more before shaving due to a nasty cut, I might just rehone this thing anyway to fix that one little spot...
The double bevel (bubble devil) is quite striking under light to the naked eye. Looking forward to the shave...
Thanks for sharing that, Jimmy. I knew I couldn't be the only with that observation, although it still remains a hunch to what's actually happening. It's always on blades that have a somewhat wider bevel, and creating a narrow secondary bevel has always turned out a good workaround.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Note that I can also get such edges shaveready without introducing using the double bevel "solution". A few laps on a pasted strop quickly deals with the situation, but for reasons that would bring us way too far off topic, I always aim to avoid paste.
Amazing. I only mentioned it, because I believe that a ultra keen "deteriorated by use" edge can fall further back than and a slightly less keen edge that holds up a bit better. That is something very noticeable on a blade of a woodworking hand plane. A highly refined, single bevelled edge on such a blade will cut wood like no tomorrow, but it's literally "no tomorrow". Within very short time such a blade falls back to a level below par. The same blade, but with a very steep secondary bevel (much steeper than we're talking about on razors) will require a tad more force to produce nice wood shavings, but it will still be on that level, long after the ultra-sharp blade has fallen back to a much less keen level. That is because the latter carries a stronger secondary bevel, but also because of the fact the the dulling of a sharp but weak edge does not produce a very slightly less sharp but stronger edge. I have no idea if any if this relates to razors. I'm not in the ultra-sharp shaving part of town.:) You guys have my utmost respect, but my skin already protests when I squeeze the best out my Chosera 10K. (weepers and stuff) Most likely because I'm used to shaving with a heavier hand than good when using a "feather"-sharp edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
As a final note: comparing 2 edges at the same level of keenness, with a bevel angle difference introduced by one or two layers of tape, the jury will never reach a verdict on edge retention. The difference will be insignificant.
Pasted edges are in shape closely related to double bevel edges. They only make a sloping curve to their final bevel angle at the very edge, while the double bevel makes the change at once. Pasting is effective, for the one reason that it allows a very fine abrassive to concentrate primarily at a small region near the very edge. In essence what you guys are doing in this study with a layer of tape achieves the same goal with different means.
Bart.
3rd shave:
I stropped very little before this one - just 12 light strokes to drag off any microscopic oxidation. After that, I lathered up and had one of the best shaves I've gotten in months. 10 out of 10 on sharpness, comfort, results, and fun. I've always felt my heavier Sheffield near-wedge was my smoothest blade, but today it was like the full hollow Imperial I've been using for this experiment wasn't even touching my skin. I went with an extremely shallow angle and held the razor ever so lightly, and the darned thing cut so well that I skipped the XTG pass entirely, getting a near-perfect shave in record time. Had an extra pass's worth of lather just sitting there in the bowl at the end.
Now I'm thinking that I hadn't really taken advantage of the 30k's potential before during the short time I've had it, because this was a whole different ballgame. Neat!
Quote:
Originally Posted by northpaw
Bart's explanation of this phenomenon made it very easy for me to understand what you are saying about squeezing more potential from the 30k. I definitely am getting more out of my 30K this way.
Ditto on last nights 3rd shave for me. I check for changes each shave under 100x mag and it looks identical to day 0. It might be redundant it seems to report each day if the blade is not changing too quick. I don't see any immidiate problems with this kind of bevel at least for now. I wonder how much of the original aggressive feeling was the learning curve from the shaving part or a small "falling back" like Bart mentioned? Sounds like you are using new technique Adam.
Mike
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingfish
Mike, I am +1 with Bart in preferring a friendlier edge. I too have suffered the weepers and attendent irritation when I shaved with the 'scary' sharp edges. I have some of the ultra high grit stones but rarely use them. Lately an 8k Naniwa is about as high as I go and frequently a 5k Shapton pro or Naniwa is what I am shaving off of following the strop of course. Sooner or later I may jump in and try your experiment though when I have the time and the inclination. Thanks for getting it going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
Mods, If you think it inappropriate here, please feel free to delete this message. It's just an idea to help facilitate this experiment, not a money making scheme.....
Hey guys, it seems this experiment is limited to just a select few people who actually own the 30K.
I was thinking of offering (1) 30K Shapton glass on a rental basis in the continental US, like a library book, to those seriously interested in participating in this experiment. Renters would get it for a week, use it how they like, lap it (any acceptable SRP endorsed method - DGLP, 1200 DMT or fine grit sandpaper), and return it to our NJ office.
While it is not limited to honemiesters, I would appreciate serious and responsible sharpeners/members only. Prerequisites include being a member for at least few months, and a preferred existing finishing stone that is higher than 8K (such as Naniwa or Chinese 12K, Shapton 15 or 16K Pro or Glass, or JNatural - I am open to ideas from Bart, JimmyHad, or Mike about jumping from cotecule to 30K)
Gentleman's rules will apply, along with a credit card payment for shipping (no PayPal, in case the stone should disappear). Renter will pay shipping both ways + token $5.00 handling fee.
Any interested, please PM me for more details and terms.
Thanks!
OK,
So I tried something new on a Wade and Butcher.
Instead of 10-15 strokes at the 30k with tape, I went and did about 200 - really establishing a 30K secondary/ micro bevel. This time I also looked under the scope to see if a bevel was actually forming. even @ 200+ strokes, there was still room for the 30K to work, but I figured this was enough for now.
IMO, You know when a razor is good to go when you can shave dry (I just did about an inch off my sideburns). My shave will have to wait until morning, though.:(
:beer1:
Tom,Quote:
Originally Posted by jendeindustries
I share and appreciate your passion for the 30k and thank you for inviting and providing the means for others interested to participate.
In this new experiment you are trying, it makes me think you could have stumbled on either of the following:
1. maybe a super stone pyramid micro between the 16k or similar will make save you from carpel tunnel syndrome:)
2. maybe your primary bevel could have been refined better as the 30k is really just finishing like a pasted strop and it sounds like way too much work
In any event, we still need to keep it as simple as possible and later figure out what happened. In other words "more is less" is what we are studying in this one and stay focused.(even though I really love your passion) If other participants, that are reporting daily or intermittantly disaggree I will stand aside for them and they can comment if needed.
Mike
Mike
If you have not figured out what Adam has stated about the angle, take note at what a relatively new honer brings to SRP. If you read between the lines. (I am sure that master honers that "are still learning" always do.) If you are "living on the sharp side of town" KEEP THE ANGLE LOW. Adam great observation and thank you for sharing, this is paramount to getting a smooth shave with this bevel finish, if you do otherwise, do so at your own risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by northpaw
Mike
4th shave:
Before shaving, I'm only doing 12 passes on the strop with this edge. Don't ask my why I settled on that number. All I can say is that over the last year+ of using the same strop, I started being able to get a sense of when a razor is ready from the feedback, and this one is there after about 12 strokes.
Another great shave, possibly better than the last. Shame I don't have a board meeting today or something. It's usually a little bit of a gamble for me to go for BBS on several consecutive days, but I got it today with absolutely zero redness afterwards. To put that into perspective, I have extremely sensitive skin* to the degree that I can get "razorburn" just from face-lathering if I'm not careful, so this is a pretty big deal for me.
Miscellaneous info to make these reports more interesting, haha:
soap: face lathered with Speick shave stick
aftershave: Proraso Pre-Post
wife: "Wow!"
:D
*not kidding about the sensitive part. I often have red fingerprints on my cheekbones at the end of the shave left over from gently stretching the skin.
I'm not crazy about microbevels as they don't seem to have the support of the steel behind them to last very long. I'm going to try this though and will let you know the result.
Howard
Hmmm... This micro bevel business sound remarkably like the secondary bevel of yesterday. While it may be narrow it actually increases the bevel angle, so even with its small dimension in one aspect, it could possibly be a macro bevel - considering its greater included angle. :dropjaw:
Is that like you say potahto and I say potayto ?:D (If you ain't old you won't get the joke)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce
Do you guys remember "Get Smart"? How about renaming the post like this: "Hey Chief, Would you believe Mini Secondary Bevel Refinement Utilizing The State of The Art Model 30000 Grit Shapton Glass Stone And A Single Piece Of Tape Trick, As An Alternative To Pastes Method TricK":)Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Mikey aka Agent 87
Over a week on my Challenge razor. The edge is holding up well. No signs of deterioration from chipping or distortion under 100x mag. The shave is really good and feels smooth and effortless one week later.
Have a great week.
Mike
I had an interesting conversation with the man who makes my reed knives about the bevel angles on a razor. It made me think of this thread, and I posted about it here in my blog.
Basically, the whole thing revolved around him saying that his knife making was done on a more philosophical approach, and therefore the optimum edge angle would be determined by that - not by "the math". I wish I could be more exact about that statement, but that's pretty much how it translated. :shrug:
Back on the SRP....
it seems we have a difference of opinion between what is a micro bevel, and what is a secondary bevel. I think the difference boils down to your philosophic outlook on sharpening.
IMO, Kingfish established a micro bevel because it is an edge that was made on the final stone at a raised angle with minimal passes after his bevel was well established and refined enough to shave with as it was.
OTOH, what I did in my blog was make a secondary bevel because I purposely set a new edge bevel at the taped angle and worked that bevel up through the sharpening progression. The original bevel was almost shave worthy, but was never intended to be the final edge. (My actions were a result of the conversation with the knife maker.)
Different? I think yes, but only because of the defined context.
I think this idea of a micro bevel is still worthy to investigate because it will all boil down to finding the best optimal angle for a razor, which may just happen to be that micro bevel angle....
Just thinking.....:D
I apologize for my tardiness. I have just this morning decided to give this technique a try with two razors I have just tuned up:
1. Joseph Elliott Hamburg Ring
2. Spokane Barber Supply Magno-Electric
I chose these two because they seem to be a pair of problem children. They both shaped up very nicely, very quickly. Icedog approves of this method.
stiffness change is cubic to thickness change, we use microbevels to make an edge stronger and resist chipping/deformation
I've done the micro (or secondary) bevel with both the 30k Shapton and a couple different coticules. I went from no tape from bevel setting on the 1k Shapton on through to the 16k Shapton, then to two layers, and around 50 laps on the Shapton 30k. On the Coticules, i went no tape to two layers, and about a hundred laps with just water (the coticules were used from bevel setting all the way through. No other stones at all). All the stones gave exceptionally sharp, smooth edges.
I think the main thing I like about this method is that it is a relatively easy and *fast* way to get a darn nice shaving edge without having to mess around with pastes, etc. It's fast, easy, great results. Even a slow coticule will finish up pretty quickly with two layers of tape used to create a micro bevel. I have six blades honed this way, but not enough shaves on them to really know anything about maintaining them.
The comparison of the microbevel honing process to stropping with a pasted hanging strop is interesting. A frequently sighted flaw of the pasted hanging strop is that it is prone to creating a convexed edge. Here with the microbevel honing we are creating a convexed edge deliberately, but now it is a good thing :confused:
The problem with pasted stropping is, not that it doesn't work very well, but that it is hard to control, and that the edge convexes further and further over a number of pasted stroppings. Eventually the resulting angle at the very edge becomes so great that it compromises the shaving comfort. That may take a while, but a heavily convexed bevel takes extra work on the hones the straighten out once it needs more than just a touch up.Quote:
Originally Posted by matt321
With a secondary bevel things are way more under control. The secondary bevel does not become steeper over a number of touch ups, it only grows wider.
Eventually it will replace the primary bevel completely, but we must not allow it to come to that. When the secondary bevel starts becoming too wide to for an easy and quick touch up on a very slow and fine finisher, you can easily do some work without tape at the primary bevel. While that one grows again, the secondary bevel is being reduced. You don't even need to wipe it out completely, just bring it within reasonable boundaries again.
Here's an illustration that shows that principle.
http://www.coticule.be/system/html/U...N-4342502a.jpg
For a larger view:
Best regards,
Bart.
I think it is interesting that you are comparing coticules to the Shapton in you version of the study. I will have to get a super fine finishing Coti sometime soon to try also. I find the blade holds up very well and requires very little stropping with a month into using mostly my Challenge full hollow. I only used one piece of tape and no more than a dozen laps on the 30K.Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorPizza
Your idea sounds like it opens up the next step to compare the various finishers out there since this type of edge finish really isolates the effect of the stone. That is the only scientific part of this study since there is no control. I know lots of members are loving the Japanese Naturals, what better way to find out what that stone is really leaving the edge like than a micro. Also, with only one piece of tape you are not changing the shaving angle a significantly, which is a better shave IME. (Earlier experiments i did with steeper micros on wedges were not as good because of the higher angle attack while shaving is not enjoyable to me) I would say two pieces of tape are not changing anything too much.
Also Bart, I read up on your earlier work with secondary bevels. lots of thought and awesome study and tribute to the coticule. I hope you understand the simplicity of this study in contrast to your earlier work.
Michael
Yup, you're reading my mind. That's exactly what I've been thinking about through the whole process. The first goal was to compare the Shapton 30k micro bevel to the coticule micro bevel. Honestly, I thought the 30k Shapton would blow the coticule out of the water. This just wasn't so. the coti finished off their micro bevels just as smoothly as the 30k Shapton, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingfish
Now to just get my hands on a good japanese finisher to *really* put this to the test.
Can you give some more samples? How great your info is! It really useful for me. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingfish
I reckon I've had something like 18-20 shaves off of this edge by now. Also shaved my wife's legs with it on two occasions, for what that's worth.
The absolute sharpness of it may have dropped the slightest bit (or I've just gotten used to handling it), but it's still far better than anything I'd been shaving with before. I'm able to consistently get perfect BBS from two passes - dropping the XTG pass entirely. On mornings I get antsy and grab another razor out of my rotation, I often wish I hadn't.
And all this with very little stropping! I've been doing only 10-15 passes on leather before I shave as a token gesture, but I'm not even sure it's necessary. I can't speak as to others' experiences with edge longevity, but this is completely atypical for me. Heck, I used to feel like I needed to strop again mid-shave half the time.
In a nutshell, the durability of this microbevel is off the scale, and there's no signs of it slowing down yet.
Looking back at how this thread started and where it has gone gets me thinking. First off, the 30k is what it is, meaning a super high grit stone that is capable of making a wicked sharp highly refind edge on a piece of steel. Providing that it has been refined to the point of where you would feel the difference on your face where it counts, on lower grits first. It has a narrow window of function that when used properly, I don't see how anyone could ever be disappointed if you are looking for that of keeness. The final result is a well defined bevel that on my face give a super smooth and close shave. Much thanks to Adam, who made me more mindful of the shaving angle and how important keeping it low is. The sharpness of this bevel allows for a low angle of attack. Facial hair even coarse beards like my own have no chance against it. Since little resistance is offered by the beard and having lowered my shaving angle, it feels like I am shaving with abandon, throwing caution to the wind as far as getting nicks or irritation. Since the bevel angle hardly changes with a single piece of tape, there is no need to increase angle and since the blade is wickedly sharp the angle drops and you get a fantastic shave. Lowering angle lowers irritation to the face. Again, thanks Adam for making me aware of it to the point where I have changed the way I shave. (two teachers, one in Macedonia and one In Florida taught something to each other here at SRP. How cool is that!!) The edge is very sturdy and I believe will last a very long time before needing to go back to the hone simply because of the lack of resistance means less stress to the edge.
I hope others that have tried it have had as much luck as we did and encourage others to try a very simple repeatable method of finishing your blade. I have tried eschers and Nakayama since, but in the application of what is being done here, the Shapton remains in my mind as good as it gets. On that subject, I now realize after playing with just a couple of naturals for a short period, that their forte, at least for the Nakayama is the wide range of duty in functional grits whereas the 30k is very narrow window of function. That does not make one "better' in my mind just different applications.
Cheers!
Mike
I been trying to work on my razor sharpening skills again lately, and I finally got to the point where I can truly appreciate this experiment. I still think there is a ways to go with my technique, but the basic edge is finally there, IMO.
So, I took my razor up through the Shapton Glass progression - 2K, 3K, 4K,6K, 8K, and 10K (the Japanese version). I stropped and checked the edge and a few hairs, and under the microscope it was still intact. I decided that the 16K might overdo it, so I added another piece of tape (making a total of 2 pieces) and did 10 strokes on the 30K glass.
I stropped on my new Kanayama 50,000 strop, and had one of my best shaves to date. :beer1:
It's still to early for me to tell if the micro bevel is good because of it being a micro bevel, or because my technique is improving, or a little of both....:thinking:, but it was definitely a step in the right direction.
I can't wait for the next razor, when time permits....
isn't a microbevel essentially what stropping creates over time? As the bevel becomes rounded by the strop, the angle of the actual edge becomes greater. That's basically what you're doing with a microbevel.
Or am I totally off-track?