Thread: Microbevels with the Shapton 30000

Originally Posted by Howard

I remember your brother asking me that! You've got a great brother and Christmas is coming soon so be nice and make a list! : ). If all you have is a Chinese 12k and a Shap 30, then use those two stones to finish your honing. You will, in my opinion, get better results from going from a Shap 16 to a Shap 30 but your brother wasn't buying the whole set. Personally, I don't like the Chinese stones. I have them and have used them but they're not my cup of tea. My suggestion is to move to the Shaptons and get set up. I use them almost exclusively now to hone razors and get consistently great shaving edges. At the honing bench I test them on the back of my hand and it's still smooth from last week's honing sessions - it's been about 3 days since I've honed. The hair on the back of my hand grows back more slowly than the hair on my face but the difference between the two hands has been enough for people to comment on them. My wife wishes I'd stop doing it as she says it looks weird.

Thanks for the confirmation about the 12k. Best little brother ever, huh? Especially remembering enough to ask about specifics after an off-hand conversation I had with him. Then again, the conversation occurred while I was shaving him, so maybe that had something to do with his retention of the relevant facts!


Back on point: are there theories as to why a microbevel might not last as long, or was that just what some folks have observed?

Originally Posted by northpaw

Thanks for the confirmation about the 12k. Best little brother ever, huh? Especially remembering enough to ask about specifics after an off-hand conversation I had with him. Then again, the conversation occurred while I was shaving him, so maybe that had something to do with his retention of the relevant facts!


Back on point: are there theories as to why a microbevel might not last as long, or was that just what some folks have observed?

Actually Adam, there is much evidence that microbevels make edges last longer and much easier to maintain, but who knows with razors? That is what makes this so fun. As Howard pointed out that some claim Tim's razors lose something along the way but that is not in a theorie realm, more or less a observation. Also, keep in mind Tim does a fair amount of development after the fact so it is different than just comming off the hone like we are doing.
As Lynn told me earlier, you can't expect these to be "Supermen" of edges. Remember what is new to us may not be to everyone else. We should temper our excitement with realism and not set expectations so high on what we are doing which by the way is ONLY an alternative to the finishing of good bevel that many learned how to do here at SRP.
Finishing will always be a personal choice, some like diamomd paste others CrO other many combinations of those. At best, this method may appeal to some others not. Some will need to tame it down with pastes etc. But we will leave that for later.
Personally, I really like them and so far are working for me. As mentioned they are simple to do and repeatable. Simple works for me right now
Mike

Originally Posted by northpaw

Back on point: are there theories as to why a microbevel might not last as long, or was that just what some folks have observed?

In absolute terms, a secondary bevel is stronger, as already mentioned by Kevint. The very edge caries a more obtuse bevel angle, which is stonger. There's no escaping that.
BUT... The edge is most likely also keener. Why, you might wonder? If you use a very fine hone such as the 30K Shapton, to finish a single bevel, the edge will most likely not reach the sharpness limit of the hone. Two principles that deny the hone's full potential:
1. the bevel is so wide that the hone has not enough abrasive power to remove the layer of steel that needs to go in order to reach the limit that the hone can offer. You could try to compensate for this by doing many, many laps. Not sure you'd ever get there. It depends on the hone.
2. There can be suction between the bevel flat and the hone's surface. As a result, the very thin part of the outer edge can start to flutter. This is a hypothesis, based upon an observation I have made time and time again when looking at magnified edges (40x): the bevel looks completely polished, but the very edge has a small region of a less polished nature, that wasn't there when the edge was less sharp. Some might suspect overhoning, and you can call it what you want, but honing on a small secondary bevel has never led me to make such an observation.

So far what happens at a single bevel. On a narrow secondary bevel:
1. On such a narrow strip, the hone can work its full potential. As already said, the edge is made buy nothing else than that hone. You can really reach the hone's physical limit.
2. No suction, no fluttering of the very edge. As said, on a narrow (micro)bevel, I have never noticed the above occurrence that seems to hold back the very edge from further development.

Because of those differences, the secondary bevelled edge is most likely the sharpest you can ever get off the hone used to cut the bevel. How keener the edge, how more fragile it is and prone to quickly loose performance. Since you guys are talking about a Shapton 30K (which I do not own) I can only imagine that you are talking about the sharpest edges around. I don't think you can expect those to last forever and a day. Furthermore, any woodworker will confirm that an initially deteriorating ultra-sharp edge falls back further than a somewhat less sharp edge that holds up. For that reason in certain woodworking appliances, edges are sometimes pre-dulled in a controlled manner. I don't know if any of this applies to shaving whiskers.

Whenever I need to test a hone, cutting a secondary bevel with it, is always one of my test procedures. It tells a lot about how keen an edge that hone can deliver and how skin friendly that edge is. The more tape you use, the quicker the secondary bevel will hit the hone's keenness limit. Yet I like to use as little tape as possible, because I don't like edges with a really obtuse angle.

Great thread. Sorry I have no 30K to add more data.

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

In absolute terms, a secondary bevel is stronger, as already mentioned by Kevint. The very edge caries a more obtuse bevel angle, which is stonger. There's no escaping that.
BUT... The edge is most likely also keener. Why, you might wonder? If you use a very fine hone such as the 30K Shapton, to finish a single bevel, the edge will most likely not reach the sharpness limit of the hone. Two principles that deny the hone's full potential:
1. the bevel is so wide that the hone has not enough abrasive power to remove the layer of steel that needs to go in order to reach the limit that the hone can offer. You could try to compensate for this by doing many, many laps. Not sure you'd ever get there. It depends on the hone.
2. There can be suction between the bevel flat and the hone's surface. As a result, the very thin part of the outer edge can start to flutter. This is a hypothesis, based upon an observation I have made time and time again when looking at magnified edges (40x): the bevel looks completely polished, but the very edge has a small region of a less polished nature, that wasn't there when the edge was less sharp. Some might suspect overhoning, and you can call it what you want, but honing on a small secondary bevel has never led me to make such an observation.

So far what happens at a single bevel. On a narrow secondary bevel:
1. On such a narrow strip, the hone can work its full potential. As already said, the edge is made buy nothing else than that hone. You can really reach the hone's physical limit.
2. No suction, no fluttering of the very edge. As said, on a narrow (micro)bevel, I have never noticed the above occurrence that seems to hold back the very edge from further development.

Because of those differences, the secondary bevelled edge is most likely the sharpest you can ever get off the hone used to cut the bevel. How keener the edge, how more fragile it is and prone to quickly loose performance. Since you guys are talking about a Shapton 30K (which I do not own) I can only imagine that you are talking about the sharpest edges around. I don't think you can expect those to last forever and a day. Furthermore, any woodworker will confirm that an initially deteriorating ultra-sharp edge falls back further than a somewhat less sharp edge that holds up. For that reason in certain woodworking appliances, edges are sometimes pre-dulled in a controlled manner. I don't know if any of this applies to shaving whiskers.

Whenever I need to test a hone, cutting a secondary bevel with it, is always one of my test procedures. It tells a lot about how keen an edge that hone can deliver and how skin friendly that edge is. The more tape you use, the quicker the secondary bevel will hit the hone's keenness limit. Yet I like to use as little tape as possible, because I don't like edges with a really obtuse angle.

Great thread. Sorry I have no 30K to add more data.

Best regards,
Bart.

Bart,
That was very good insight and made me understand how the secondary bevel reaches the poential of the hone. I wish you could join the group. On the falling back of the edge in woodworking, that does happen all too quickly. Moreover, the sharper it is to begin with the sharper the "working" edge is after it has fallen back. Also the duller and less defined the edge is to start the more force is required when working an edge subjecting it to chipping faster. That is why I am going to call this a study Vs Experiment, if that is OK with the participants because there are too many variables to wrap my head around.
It will be a learning experience for sure. Thanks again for the insight and making it so clear as to why the hone is doing what it is doing. Bart,that by far was the best explanation I have ever heard in regards to this phenomena and stokes our understanding of honing .
Mike

Originally Posted by Bart

I don't think you can expect those to last forever and a day. Furthermore, any woodworker will confirm that an initially deteriorating ultra-sharp edge falls back further than a somewhat less sharp edge that holds up. For that reason in certain woodworking appliances, edges are sometimes pre-dulled in a controlled manner. I don't know if any of this applies to shaving whiskers.

Thanks for the excellent post Bart. I have experienced the flutter too.

Your mention of purposely dulling a sharp edge brings to mind the practice of some DE shavers of 'corking' Feather blades to take a bit of the edge off. (no pun intended)

Having noticed that they were frequently smoother on the second shave the idea of running them lightly over a piece of cork is practiced by some guys.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Thanks for the excellent post Bart. I have experienced the flutter too.

Your mention of purposely dulling a sharp edge brings to mind the practice of some DE shavers of 'corking' Feather blades to take a bit of the edge off. (no pun intended)

Having noticed that they were frequently smoother on the second shave the idea of running them lightly over a piece of cork is practiced by some guys.

For me Jimmy,There is a learning curve shaving with the blades finished like this. It is a real light touch and a little less scything. But light touch is the biggest difference.
Mike

Day 3:

Not really much different than Day 2 or 1......So it's obviously holding up. I stropped on linen and leather (well, vegan leather ) before-hand. It left my face a little raw, but I just washed my face instead of showering, so my beard-prep wasn't as good tonight. Nothing too exciting, it shaved well and is still really sharp! I really don't think it's a better shave than a usually sharpened edge finished up to a high grit, at least I really don't notice that much of a difference.

If it holds up for a while, that would be good. It seems that the jury is still out as to whether a microbevel will make the edge last longer or shorter, and all I can tell you is that it lasts for a least 3 days for the 1 razor I've tried it on. My conclusion: I have NO idea how long it'll last. I'm just a test dummy.

My entry into this "study" will remain incomplete for now, but in the mail came an Engstrom frameback, a rather thin specimen with the brass frame cylinder. I spent about 2 hours cleaning it and polishing it (with a new technique I shall share elsewhere), then spent another 2 hours honing it. I could have sped up the process with pressure, but I wanted to remain diligent about using little/no pressure until ALL the micro chips were gone.
Removed chips on 325 grit, set bevel on 1k, sharpened on 6k, polished on 12k, added tape, repolished on 12k with 15 laps. Wouldn't break hair so I had to strop, now it splits hairs silently like a nice frameback should in all but one spot (er, um, I'm relatively new at this?).
I'm going to wait a few days more before shaving due to a nasty cut, I might just rehone this thing anyway to fix that one little spot...
The double bevel (bubble devil) is quite striking under light to the naked eye. Looking forward to the shave...

Originally Posted by Kingfish

For me Jimmy,There is a learning curve shaving with the blades finished like this. It is a real light touch and a little less scything. But light touch is the biggest difference.
Mike

Originally Posted by Bart

I'm not in the ultra-sharp shaving part of town. You guys have my utmost respect, but my skin already protests when I squeeze the best out my Chosera 10K. (weepers and stuff) Most likely because I'm used to shaving with a heavier hand than good when using a "feather"-sharp edge. Bart.

Mike, I am +1 with Bart in preferring a friendlier edge. I too have suffered the weepers and attendent irritation when I shaved with the 'scary' sharp edges. I have some of the ultra high grit stones but rarely use them. Lately an 8k Naniwa is about as high as I go and frequently a 5k Shapton pro or Naniwa is what I am shaving off of following the strop of course. Sooner or later I may jump in and try your experiment though when I have the time and the inclination. Thanks for getting it going.

Mods, If you think it inappropriate here, please feel free to delete this message. It's just an idea to help facilitate this experiment, not a money making scheme.....

Hey guys, it seems this experiment is limited to just a select few people who actually own the 30K.

I was thinking of offering (1) 30K Shapton glass on a rental basis in the continental US, like a library book, to those seriously interested in participating in this experiment. Renters would get it for a week, use it how they like, lap it (any acceptable SRP endorsed method - DGLP, 1200 DMT or fine grit sandpaper), and return it to our NJ office.

While it is not limited to honemiesters, I would appreciate serious and responsible sharpeners/members only. Prerequisites include being a member for at least few months, and a preferred existing finishing stone that is higher than 8K (such as Naniwa or Chinese 12K, Shapton 15 or 16K Pro or Glass, or JNatural - I am open to ideas from Bart, JimmyHad, or Mike about jumping from cotecule to 30K)

Gentleman's rules will apply, along with a credit card payment for shipping (no PayPal, in case the stone should disappear). Renter will pay shipping both ways + token $5.00 handling fee.

Any interested, please PM me for more details and terms.

Thanks!