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  1. #1
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    Default Trouble with water stones

    Wood workers and straight razor users seem to have the greatest knowledge/interest in sharpening, so I am going to ask my question here even though course and medium hones are seldom used on straight razors.
    First, I should give an introduction. I sharpen hundreds of kitchen knives and wood working tools, as well as some straight razors for personal use and restoration projects. It started out as a hobby and I mainly sharpened tools for family and friends; more recently, I’m trying to start a small sharpening business on the side until I finish school and start a real career. Although I use a belt and bench grinder, I do most of my sharpening using bench stones (This might change if business picks up). For polishing, I use a shapton glass 4000 and 8000 grit stones, followed by a .5 micron chromium oxide and .05 micron alumina polish pasted strops. I found the .05 micron alumina polish on a metallurgical supply company’s website; its intended use is for polishing semiconductors, however, it puts a wonderful edge on straight razors. This system allows straight razors to easily pass the hanging hair test and wood working tools and kitchen knives to pop hairs off like a razor blade. I’m pretty much content with this system, although I might experiment with lapping film and naniwa super stones just for fun. The problem I’m having is finding the best course and medium hones for shaping blades and grinding new primary bevels.
    With regard to course hones, I’ve used Norton course silicon carbide stones saturated in kerosene and DMT course and extra course diamond stones. Both these systems seem to cut at the same speed. The problem with the oil stones is that when they do dish out, they are a nightmare to flatten and I have to clean the oil off tools before I move on to the Shaptons. The DMT stones begin performing well, and then decline as the diamonds wear off. I need to replace them every three to four months. After reading about how fast water stones cut and how they are superior to oil stones, I bought a set of nortons from 220 grit through 8000 grit. I soaked them in water and lapped them. The course stone cut much slower than my silicon carbide oil stone and did not work up a nice burr. The finer stones did nothing to improve the edge. I sharpened the same knife to a razor edge on DMT and shapton hones to convince myself there was nothing wrong with the steel or my technique. Next, I ordered a 220 grit glass shapton and a 220 grit naniwa superstone. I’ve experimented with these stones on a couple knives and a beat up chisel. Neither one of them cuts as quickly as the diamond or oil stones. Also, I never get nice clear burr like I do with the other stones. It seems strange that three different brands of water and ceramic stones would perform so poorly compared with oil and diamond.
    My questions are:
    1) Am I doing something wrong?
    2) Do water stones give an easily felt burr, or do you have to rely on on other measures to see if you have ground a new edge?
    3) Should I try kings or a different brand of water stone?
    4) Why does the 15 micron DMT give a better edge than my 14.8 micron shapton?
    Thanks for any advice,
    Bob

  2. #2
    The Great & Powerful Oz onimaru55's Avatar
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    In the immortal words of Yosemite Sam " Whooooa Dragon "
    You won't find a single honemeister or honester here that" raises a burr" on razors & if you can't raise one with the waterstones you used, well that's a positive with razors

    For a start, have a good read here Category:Straight Razor Maintenance - Honing & Stropping - Straight Razor Place Wiki you will see its a very different process to what you are familiar with doing knives & tools. Its really a different paradigm & raising burrs on a razor would simply wear it out long before its time.

    To answer your questions briefly
    1) Am I doing something wrong? ~ Yes you are trying to raise a burr.
    2) Do water stones give an easily felt burr, or do you have to rely on on other measures to see if you have ground a new edge? ~ We rely on other tests which hopefully you will read about
    3) Should I try kings or a different brand of water stone? ~ No just stop trying to raise a burr.
    4) Why does the 15 micron DMT give a better edge than my 14.8 micron shapton? ~ I don't know but at bevel setting the DMT will be "toothier" & the Shapton smoother. You may only have the illusion the DMT gives a sharper edge. Many of us use the GS stones with complete satisfaction.
    Last edited by onimaru55; 09-23-2010 at 09:40 AM.
    “The white gleam of swords, not the black ink of books, clears doubts and uncertainties and bleak outlooks.”

  3. #3
    Senior Member Lesslemming's Avatar
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    Hello Bob,

    this might be the wrong forum you´re posting your request on.
    The Knifeforums (Knifeforums.com homepage) may be a better place
    because there are many people that have experience with all kind of tools,
    not only straights.

    The thing is just like Onimaru said, razors are very different from any other tool.

    I do have experience with all kinds of tools and in the lower grit range I prefer my DMT 325 and 600 for restoration work on kitchen knives that have seen years of abuse.
    So we´re talking about dull knives, not ruined, but dull.

    I don´t really understand the problem you´re experiencing.
    I know, a burr is an indicater you´re through on one side and can switch to the other.
    I do that as well. But why would you not get a burr on other brands?

    Did you make a sharpie test? Colour the bevel and see if you have contact all along the edge.

    Maybe the burr a shapton produces is smaller than that of the DMT,
    what have you done to detect it? Did you try to use your fingernail?

    What exactly do you mean by "DMT leaves a better edge"?
    Does it cut better (tomato, paper, hair) or does it feel smoother?
    DMT tend to leave an edge that seems awesome.
    But in fact it is not, it´s the huge burr that does the cutting work
    but will say bye-bye soon.

    I really don´t know how much youre sharpening but replacing DMT every three months seems kind of a waste to me.
    DMT do get more gentle, but they keep that level for a long time.
    You should try using them longer, een if they get a bit slower.
    Otherwise use them for lapping or sell them on the classifield as used lapping stones

    Anyway, you should try Knifeforums.com homepage


    EDIT: I have focused on non straight razor tools in my answer.

  4. #4
    I used Nakayamas for my house mainaman's Avatar
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    I sharpen knives too, so I picked out my 600/ 1k /3k stones to be useful for both razors and knives. I chose Nniwa chosera, and I really like the results from those stones, they are rather fast, great feed back and reasonable dish rate. There are many other stone systems that will do the same job just as well, Super stones , Shapton Glass, Shapton Pro, Bester 500 and 1200 etc. It's a bit of a personal preference thing combined with what works on most of your blades. In my experience chances are you get more than one brand of stones to complement each other.
    Stefan

  5. #5
    Senior Member blabbermouth JimmyHAD's Avatar
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    I've always gotten very good results with the Norton 4/8 waterstones. I can't speak to the rest of it because I don't sharpen knives, other than my pocket knives, but as onimaru55 said, razors are a different kettle of fish. No burr.
    Be careful how you treat people on your way up, you may meet them again on your way back down.

  6. #6
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    Oops, I guess I should clarify. I'm having trouble raising a burr with water stones on knives and woodworking tools. I know you dont raise a burr with straight razors. I generally just use 4000 and 8000 grit shaptons unless I need to remove a nick.

    One thing I've picked up from other forums is that some types of water stones are very fussy with stainless alloys and are better suited for carbon steel. This might be the trouble I'm having.

    Thanks for all your input,
    Bob

  7. #7
    Senior Member blabbermouth hi_bud_gl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob44 View Post
    Oops, I guess I should clarify. I'm having trouble raising a burr with water stones on knives and woodworking tools. I know you dont raise a burr with straight razors. I generally just use 4000 and 8000 grit shaptons unless I need to remove a nick.

    One thing I've picked up from other forums is that some types of water stones are very fussy with stainless alloys and are better suited for carbon steel. This might be the trouble I'm having.

    Thanks for all your input,
    Bob
    Some stones will act to different steel differently .why i am not sure.
    If you want to raise the burr Go head please use a lot pressure . that will give to you burr you are looking for.

  8. #8
    The Great & Powerful Oz onimaru55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob44 View Post
    Oops, I guess I should clarify. I'm having trouble raising a burr with water stones on knives and woodworking tools. I know you dont raise a burr with straight razors. I generally just use 4000 and 8000 grit shaptons unless I need to remove a nick.
    My apologies. Thought you were trying to sharpen razors by raising a burr
    “The white gleam of swords, not the black ink of books, clears doubts and uncertainties and bleak outlooks.”

  9. #9
    Senior Member matt321's Avatar
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    The chart below shows the relative cutting speed for various abrasive types. This floats around on the knife sharpening forums. I don't know the origin so I can't give credit or authority. None the less I have always assumed it was accurate. Accordingly, Silicon Carbide is rated slower than diamond hones or waterstones. Thus, if your carbide stone is faster than a waterstone it is probably also much coarser.

    (The ceramic media shown on the chart is the sintered type like Spyderco stones rather than the Shapton hones which would be included as waterstones.)

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    As for burrs, it is easier to raise an obvious burr on a coarse grit. My limited knife sharpening experience is way less than yours, but I sometimes get burrs and sometimes not. It is a mystery for me. I suspect it is related to the steel type, the abrasive type, the pressure used, etc. I prefer to raise a burr as my best knife sharpening results usually happen that way.
    Last edited by matt321; 09-24-2010 at 04:30 AM.

  10. #10
    The Electrochemist PhatMan's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Many apologies if this observation is not quite 'on post' (as this is the 'Advanced Honing Forum')

    WRT cutting speed of hones, I find that as a honing newbie, hones that have slow to medium cutting rate are easier for me to use and learn on.

    Obviously, if you are an expert honer, then that is a different matter !

    Have fun !

    Best regards

    Russ

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