Thread: Slurry this & slurry that...on Shapton GS stones

Originally Posted by pinklather

I've often wondered if anyone got 'smooth' from shaptons (or c12k, or translucent arkies). I've had no trouble getting sharp, but that leaves me wanting.
I know some prefer a brisk, super keen finish w/ somewhat of a scraping sensation on the skin. Is it just that preference? or can coti-like smooth be had from there stones?

You missed it???

Totally missed the point made earlier in the thread, it isn't the stones/hones...
You are bouncing around from stone to stone searching for the right one. where the point of each one of these threads, and all those vids on each stone is to help people learn each system better... What the real lesson is here is to adjust the stone/hone to your face not the other way around...

Keep in mind this has way more to do with your face and the razor than the stone though...

For instance, I finish all Sheffield steel on a beautiful select grade Coticule that other people always tell me leaves a sweet edge on these razors... -BUT- personally to me, they are harsh as all get out , I don't like Heavy Sheffield razors they don't work for me...So it doesn't matter what hone/stone/paste I use, the razor always feels harsh to my face... but, I know better than to blame the Coticule...
So basically what I am telling you is that sweet edge probably has way more to do with the razor and your face rather than the stone that you are using on it...

My Perfection = 11/16 spike point NY American or Solingen steel honed on the Shapton GS system using a light slurry on each stone out to the 3-2-1 on the 30k stropped with 12 laps on a CeOx pasted strop and then stropped in on an SRD Premium I .. That combo I know gives my face a BBS in 2 very light passes and ZERO irritation... Nothing, no other stone, or hone, or razor, can match that combo for my face...

But then again I had to find that out too

Edit:
Another thought occurred to me, to help you maybe understand what I saying here...
You have an Asagi, you are pretty proficient in it's use, and you just got a pretty new Coticule and IIRC I read you have a PHIG also...
If I were to send you a Japanese Iwasaki Kamisori, which stone would you think to hone that razor with?? which do you think would bring out the best edge on it???

Gratze, Glen.

We encounter alot of guys that "You are bouncing around from stone to stone searching for the right one." Compared to 1000+ blade counts and years on a single stone, anyone with under a year's experience and more than one stone would fit that description. That a stone or system must be learned in not in dispute. Six months on a stone (c12k) is hardly bouncing from stone to stone. Can I reliably go to the fav rock & get results? You bet - most of the time. So branching to the coti to learn it is the task at hand & alot of fun.

The thrust of the question is not 'these stones work/don't work' - that would say alot more about me than the stones. The question is aimed at those stones I've not successfully gotten the attribute of 'smoothness' from. Why ask? To find the techniques I've missed and add them to the quiver of skills.

There are stones I've tried alot, and haven't mastered to my satisfaction (c12k). Ones I've tried a little, and don't have the skills/techniques to get smooth (arkie). Some I've not tried and am curious about. Some I've tried some and results are pleasing (asagi/and the new cotis). The search is for the skills and techniques - mostly from working the stones, as opposed to supplementing w/ pastes, sprays, etc. That work and time would be needed for each is not a put off, but the techniques that make them work well are valuable to know whether or not a person has every stone (would take TARP funds ).

Somehow the area of question seems to provoke - as though I seek a magic bullet that doesn't exist. That's not the case. I'm chasing the tips and technique that I've so far missed.

Now the razor/face side remains a puzzle. I too cannot get a good feel on the face from a heavy sheffield. The coti was partially a last blast before concluding 'I'm not a sheffield guy'. I wish I was - they're handsome and some very comfortable in the hand for maneuvering. I suspect that the more skills/techniques in the quiver with the stones, the fewer the blades that can't be made comfortable. If that's not the case, I've really underestimated the subjective fit of the blade and the face. If that's what you're telling me - it's really big, and I'm grateful (again).

(btw - I did have a small perfection import also - and it DID take a magnificent edge from the c12k)

That is precisely the message, Some razors and some faces don't mesh, some stones on some razors on some faces don't mesh and let's really get stupid and say that some razors on some stones with some pastes on some faces don't mesh

Honestly if there were one answer there would be one stone and one brand of razor

The deeper you delve the deeper it gets..

Here is a new twist or perhaps and older one... Stropping is way more important to the smoothness of the edge then most people think

PS: I know many people get upset with these numbers but honestly, to bad so sad,,, numbers don't lie, only people do...

Personally I don't even think I have scratched the surface of a stone until I have honed 100 different razors on that stone, then I start to actually think I might know something, but usually later on I learn more...

PSS; The PHIG has 4 distinct types of finishes that I personally have found in 4 different stones, to expect all naturals of a given type to produce the same results is naive, look at the differences between Coticules, Eschers, Japanese Natural,, ALL natural stone by their "nature" are different... Two J-Nats can be night and day with how they finish... Do you think that there are different labels on the ends of the Eschers because they all finish the exact same??? If you are getting substandard results from your PHIG it very well could be just that stone is one of the hard scratchy ones If I had stopped at my first PHIG I would have thought that myself it took 4 stones before I realized that only one of the 4 gave the results that I was after...

In an effort to flee as far from blaming the tool as I can get - I tend to blame the craftsman (me) - for lack of skill/experience, etc. I'm certainly willing pay my dues & put in the work. That there are larger 'fit' issues certainly keeps me from working hard for nothing.

You've said repeatedly that stropping is under-rated. It's counsel I've kept close at hand. My first run at full honing on the BBW (per the recent coti/bbw study), I stropped 200 linen, 200 shell. Whoops! Keenness is all there, but overwhelmed the 'smooth'. Others say beyond 60 each gives no added benefit, but rightly or wrongly, it seems to make a large difference to the soligens and US blades I've worked.

Also very helpful to hear that each of your PHIG (I'm presuming this is the 'c12k'). stones gave different finish attributes. That's helping alot.

As always, I appreciate your kind & generous sharing of your skill & knowledge.

No problem I can yak about honing razors for hours hehehe


Small Hint on stropping that might a huge difference...

Hold the strop Taut, not tight

I love the way the conversation circles and cycles about honing methods. Slurry honing has been the buzz for over 400 years and it gets rediscovered and played with over and over again. I like slurries. I find they give a smoother edge than I can get from honing directly on a stone surface that may be wet but is lean on the slurry. I get a smooth edge from my Shaptons but I go out to 30k which is a quantum leap from the 16k. Whatever I do from there tends to degrade the edge and that includes .5 m diamond, CrO, and brand new leather strops. When we were making our DVD, Harrelson honed a razor out to 30k, photographed it at 200x, and then stropped it with 2 or 3 passes. The next photo showed brand new scratches in the bevel going out to the edge. This results in a less smooth shave. The strop degraded the finish from the Shap 30. If you go through this exercise I'd be interested in hearing your results. I've had other razors show the same thing but the more others try this, the more we'll find out as razors, honing technique, and strops all vary.

I like bouncing around from stone to stone. It's one of the things I love the most about this passion. My face and whiskers don't change . . . they're the static factor. Each stone teaches me things and each razor is like discovering a new friend. What I find most interesting of all is what I tend to come back to after exploring new stones and giving them a good workout on different razors and even different tools such as knives, axes, and chisels. If your goal is solely a great shave then pick one of the systems and learn it well and be done with it - Eschers, Shaptons, Coticules, Japanese stones all work really well with good razors. If you really enjoy honing steel as an activity in and of itself though . . . then bounce away!

Originally Posted by Howard

I like bouncing around from stone to stone. It's one of the things I love the most about this passion. My face and whiskers don't change . . . they're the static factor. Each stone teaches me things and each razor is like discovering a new friend. What I find most interesting of all is what I tend to come back to after exploring new stones and giving them a good workout on different razors and even different tools such as knives, axes, and chisels. If your goal is solely a great shave then pick one of the systems and learn it well and be done with it - Eschers, Shaptons, Coticules, Japanese stones all work really well with good razors. If you really enjoy honing steel as an activity in and of itself though . . . then bounce away!

+1
You have described, far better than I could have, excactly how I feel about honing

I used to use my synthetic finishers with just water for ages, and then I tried them out with slurry and I definately prefer them with slurry..!

I dont use slurry on any of the lower grits but my finisher always gets slurried, regardless of what it is.

I totally agree that you have to spend some time to learn your stones.

When I first started out playing with stones I tried to buy all I could find and it turned into a mess. In the end after I bought my second coti I sold every other stone I had and have just been using that to maintain and hone my razors.

At first the results were nothing to write home about but slowly I learned proper technique and was able to give myself a great edge.

Now while I think I can do a good job on my razors I would never trust my edge to send out to anyone else because it's probably really bad compared to you guys. In the end tho I have the tools and knowledge to keep my razors in proper condition which is what it's all about.