Thread: The Finished Edge

I have seen this also but not all the time. It usually occurs during the 8k stage. In my mind this is the edge getting so thin that it is starting to bend just a little and reflecting the light at a different angle . The subsequent laps on the abrasive pasted paddle strop usually remove it.

I think it is a form of micro-burr which may sometimes be related to bevel geometry &/or steel quality or maybe that the razor is what I call "9/10 broke" i.e. as sharp as possible before edge breakdown.

It may be what Iwasaki referred to as the "False Edge" ?

Lynn!

This is a fascinating post!! I don't have access to extreme magnification, however I'll follow closely just to become more educated!

Originally Posted by randydance062449

The subsequent laps on the abrasive pasted paddle strop usually remove it.

That is what I thought too, but I guess I have not been paying very close attention

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I think it is a form of micro-burr which may sometimes be related to bevel geometry &/or steel quality or maybe that the razor is what I call "9/10 broke" i.e. as sharp as possible before edge breakdown.

It may be what Iwasaki referred to as the "False Edge" ?

I've sort of noticed this too--I don't really see any sparklies under 60x (the lowest setting of the Radio SHack scope I have), but I definitely notice my edges feel smoother & for sure sharper after a good linen/leather stropping 30/60 or so. THey also pop hairs much more effortlessly.

I've actually been using a little bit more pressure stropping than normal on the first 20 or so strokes on leather, then going to normal for the remainder--for some reason that really helps perfect the edge for me. I figure either I'm shaping the edge just a touch more (Hamaguriba, I think it's called) or I'm slightly overdoing finishing & the stropping cleans the edge up. I tried stropping normal pressure only after honing & couldn't really tell a difference between that & straight off the hone w/ no stropping, so the few strokes w/ pressure definitely is doing something.

Stropping like this before every shave however will dull the blade rapidly (3 shaves max); I only do this for 20 or so strokes right off the hone & always strop normally otherwise.

So I read the article because I have been hunting for advice on calming down my edge off a Norton 8k (my lowest grit stone). I get the edge tree topping after 8k, then nailing it after green and red paste on balsa. I know the blade is sharp because I have shaved with it and compared it to others sharpened by my betters and it does the trick although not as refined. This time I did 100 on red (no green) then 200 on the paddle strop. The edge was no longer passing the hanging hair test with SWMBO's hair but shaved without the usual break in period of about a week. This one worked for me thanks guys.

I'm glad to read that this is more common than what I thought. I have notice the exact same thing as Lynn has. I thought I was over honing at first, but after my regular paste and trop they where gone and the shave was as good as any other good shave. What I further notice when I first observed it, was that after the shave and before the strop (used a tp to clean the edge after water), I could see the sparklies in some small areas of the edge again, stropped and they where gone!

I like the theory of micro bur, or almost failing edge (9/10). The false edge have a Japanese mystique to it that I also like. But like many fishing books I have read and all the fishing I've done and still do, we tend to have theories of why the fish act like they do, but the truth is we don't know for sure, only God knows! I'm beginning to feel the same way with honing!

Looking forward to reading more theories. Double O

If I may offer some obervations...

I was sharpening a razor over this last weekend (progression can be seen here) and I found something out very interesting (unfortunately I did not get a photo, I will try to next time though). Lynn, I think what you are experiencing has to do with edge leading or edge trailing passes on your stones. When I did edge trailing passes and took a photograph I could see this wire/foil edge that was created at the very edge of the edge... when I did edge leading passes it disappeared.

Apparently there is some merrit to this as well... I am sure you have seen Dr. Verhoeven's paper, but if you scroll down to page 22 Dr. Verhoeven makes this observation:

"All of the sharpening done on the waterstones moved the blade along the stone in
the direction into the blade edge causing the abrasive debris to move away from the edge.
It was theorized that moving in this direction would reduce the bur size at the edge by
preventing the debris from being deposited along the edge. To see if this theory was
supported by evidence an experiment was done on the 6000 grit waterstone where the 10
4-stroke cycles were all done with the blade edge moving away-from rather than into the
stone surface. The results are shown in Fig. 27. Comparing Figs 25 and 27 one sees that
moving the blade away-from the edge, as in Fig. 27, does seem to produce a significantly
larger bur than moving it into the edge, as in Fig. 25. The larger bur is also accompanied
by an increase in edge roughness, as shown in the face views."

I know people like Murray Carter (hated here probably) among others advocates edge trailing passes when you get to the higher grit stones, but I am beginning to think this is counter productive. Maybe you can weigh in and offer some experimentation yourself? Hope this helps...

Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Lynn. I recommend you try getting a shave ready edge off your 8k before using pastes. Maybe see if you can meet with a honemiester in your area....

Ahhahhahhaaaah!

For those that need a little pick me up giggle.

Lynn,

Are you coming off synthetics? I have heard some reports of this type of phenomenon that you don't get with a natural that slurries like a JNat or some coticules. Maybe try that and see if you still get the sparkles.

i believe the idea is that some slurry will wear the tiny foil edge off. You might try following a sparkly with a JNat and see if it changes.

Cheers, Steve