Thread: Honing with/without tape... Testing the theories

Facts = doing actual tests instead of just doing theory and typing

First let me say I could not care less if you tape or not, they are your razors doesn't make any difference to me

But what I hate reading is statements from people that haven't tested things themselves..

One of the statements that gets me is this one, that comes up in every single tape-vs-no tape thread...

"If you hone with tape it will change the angle of the razor that is built in by the maker over time"

That statement is true, I am not saying it isn't....It is very simple, as the edge and spine wear down (key word here) equally the angle should stay the same over time..
The trick comes in with the equally and the amount of time part of the statement...

Enter The Test Razor:







I bought this 5 years ago right before I joined SRP the razor was honed by it's first owner without tape, it has been my goto test bed razor for most every dumb thing I can think of and most every new stone I buy.. It was my test razor for the Diamond Paste stropping experiment and it is being tested right now on the WHIG's,,,, in between the Purple WHIG and the Green WHIG it hit 30 honing cycles by me..

I decided to use it to test the "Tape Theory"
Since I am not going to have the years required to do this I used the "Excessively Honed Razor" instead..

The razor has gone through 30 full honings since I have owned it so maybe 31 or 32 total, it has always been honed with tape by me, 1 layer of Scotch #700 3M electrical tape. When I say "Full Honings" I mean from a new bevel set, so these are not what the normal user would do with just refreshing it lightly..

The numbers are after 3 times measuring with my good calipers using the same method we used back here many thanks to Gugi for the math

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...zor-angle.html

(2 * asin(.181 / (2 * .620)) * 180) / pi = 16.786646

So after 30+ full honing cycles the angle hasn't even gone over the 17 degree mark yet... Just how long does it take when honing with tape to wreck the angle??? Considering we had razors in that old thread that shaved from 12 degrees to 24 degrees I probably won't be finding out because after 30 honing cycles I probably have not even gone through 1/64 of an inch So let's go forward 60 more honing cycles at this rate and say it goes to a 4/8 which is a bit of a stretch considering the wear so far, but lets just do that..

So after 90+ honing cycles with tape we might have a 4/8 razor and here is the math

(2 * asin(.181 / (2 * .500)) * 180) / pi = 20.8560248

That is still inside the working angle limit we proved in 2009 and like I said the wear isn't really working out to be that hard even with doing full honings each time...
So how many years of service should I really expect from a second rate Kamisori Brand #306 razor I bought for $24 ????? Oh yeah I guess I forgot to mention this razor isn't even considered to be that good (that is why I use it as a test bed)


So in conclusion I leave you with the same thing I and many others have said all along...

Using tape really doesn't matter, other than it saves the spine...


You guys have to figure out your own usage levels with honing a razor, you would have to figure out the difference with just touch ups vs full honings vs times per year you hone etc: etc: The way I rough figured it for my usage to give an idea

1 full honing cycles equals 2 refresh honing cycles
2 touch ups per year for me
So I have put 30 years of wear on this razor so far
ie: it will outlive me..

ps: I never measured the razor when I bought it, but assuming the manufacturer did, we could assume a true 5/8 blade which would mean it started .625 in width which kinda adds more years to my theory I know it wasn't larger than that when I got it and the edge angle works out to be about right for Solingen razors...

pss: PLEASE don't take my testing, or word for it, go hone and find out for yourself you have to see what each honing cycle takes off your razor I would measure maybe every 10 if I were going to do this again.. I will keep checking this razor through the next few years also...


Thanks for reading

I have never tested this, but I am going to comment anyway...
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! (that's my evil laugh)



Tape sucks.

Originally Posted by HNSB

I have never tested this, but I am going to comment anyway...
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! (that's my evil laugh)



Tape sucks.

LMAO Eric I see you took Lee's way of making a point


Muhahahaha


(how do I know this will be the only thread Lee reads this week)

Originally Posted by gssixgun

LMAO Eric I see you took Lee's way of making a point


Muhahahaha


(how do I know this will be the only thread Lee reads this week)

You know me too well, scary

Eric, I thought about changing my name just because of that Master Lee debacle, but then I remembered Michael Bolton in Office Space: "why should I change my name? he's the one who sucks"

PS if you tape the entire razor, it never wears down at all

I am glad you started this thread, I almost forgot a weekend test I made about 2 months ago. I was debating about this tape stuff too, especially the one regarding angle change over time. I got out a russian razor I was honing, and emulated the following:

Lets assume you do 20 strokes on a finisher to refresh your razors edge every week, for 50 years, and you shave with it every day, no other razor used. Thats a total of 52.000 strokes.

I did about 10.000 strokes on a 12k Shapton pro, can you imagine how much time and lapping that took?

I measured the razor before and after it, and the difference came out roughly at 0.1mm, so if I would have gone farther, the width loss would have been about 0.5mm for 50 years of constant use, but lets calculate with 1mm. Thats almost nothing, even for a 5/8 razor. So in my opinion this myth is busted, the bevel angle won't change considerably if you care for your razor. Or bettter I should say that it will change, but no human is capable to spot this small of a difference.

I was hoping that you will repost this.

Originally Posted by jeness

I measured the razor before and after it, and the difference came out roughly at 0.1mm, so if I would have gone farther, the width loss would have been about 0.5mm for 50 years of constant use, but lets calculate with 1mm. Thats almost nothing, even for a 5/8 razor.

And that's exactly what everybody with two bits of common sense should've done before ever posting how important the change in the bevel angle is over 'many years'.

As you calculated the change due to hone wear over a person's life time is between 0.5 and 1 degree!!! And that's with very heavy maintenance - with my stropping my maintenance is roughly 10 to 50 times less.

I only wish more people would do a basic thinking before making insane statements about stuff they do not understand. Most of all I expect it from knifemakers who are aspiring to be gurus, and talk about 'science' as if they know what it means.


Of course, abusing razors is a whole different story, and I would simply stay away from those 'experts' regardless of whether they use, or not use a tape.

What I like about this as well is that it also shows how little wear there is period when the honing is done properly. So in my mind, taping remains purely a personal preference or marketing argument, although there are definite uses for it in specific situations.


We don't need no stinkin' Tape...

Originally Posted by jeness

I am glad you started this thread, I almost forgot a weekend test I made about 2 months ago. I was debating about this tape stuff too, especially the one regarding angle change over time. I got out a russian razor I was honing, and emulated the following:

Lets assume you do 20 strokes on a finisher to refresh your razors edge every week, for 50 years, and you shave with it every day, no other razor used. Thats a total of 52.000 strokes.

I did about 10.000 strokes on a 12k Shapton pro, can you imagine how much time and lapping that took?

I measured the razor before and after it, and the difference came out roughly at 0.1mm, so if I would have gone farther, the width loss would have been about 0.5mm for 50 years of constant use, but lets calculate with 1mm. Thats almost nothing, even for a 5/8 razor. So in my opinion this myth is busted, the bevel angle won't change considerably if you care for your razor. Or bettter I should say that it will change, but no human is capable to spot this small of a difference.

I have learned much from Lee, the master.

I would call him "Master Lee", but I'm pretty sure that is patented, copyrighted, and trademarked.

After a year of messing with honing always using tape I dipped my foot in the water of honing without it. One of the reasons was Lynn doesn't use it except in certain circumstances. I figured if the premier honemeister in the world doesn't use it there must be something to it. Anyway, I took a micrometer to the spine of a NOS Solingen full hollow and honed it without tape. I checked it again afterwards and it was the same measurement as near as my eye could tell. So I figured that if I was going to tear up a spine it wouldn't be in one honing session at the skill level I had reached at that time.

I've got a lot of razors so I don't have to hone one a whole lot of the time. If I had one or two and they saw the hones often I might rethink it but with the amount of time the many spend on the rocks I don't worry about the wear, which is, as I said, inappreciable at this stage of the game. The thing that made me stick with no tape is the feel of the blade on the hones. Aside from the fact that tape is , AFAIC, a hassle, it offers a certain resistance that I don't feel without it.

Once I got used to the feel of the naked blade on the hone, and I did have to get used to it, I was hooked. Whenever I hone a pattern welded steel, A.K.A. "Damascus" blade I use tape and it reminds me of why I don't like to hone with it. YMMV.

I guess I just have better things to do than test this theory. I will just trust a man who does this way more than I do and continue to protect my spines. Besides, I would hate having to acid etch my Allman Scandi blade every time I hone.