Thread: Honing with/without tape... Testing the theories

Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

That's an interesting post, but for me, mainly around the frequency of honing. I refresh my razors on a Shapton16k; maybe 20 laps, around once a month to every six weeks. Am I honing too often? I have a rotation of 5 straights. They each get used once a week. I do realise there's a lot of factors that would determine the need to refresh/hone, but what would be the 'norm', generally speaking?

I hone normally just to practice and for something to do, i.e. as part of the 'hobby'...

I doubt that a Norm can ever be figured although many of us try LOL

Just thinking about it quickly here, I can think of way to many variables that would have to be figured,, I bet you could come close to an average for yourself if you are like me and pretty much stick with one type of razor all the time

I know for 20+ years I re-freshed my two razors every 2 weeks like clockwork on my Arkansas stone without tape, I had no idea about "Honing" I just knew I got better shaves then a Bic...

I never wore out the razors though, I dropped them both eventually and broke them so I guess in the end it wasn't relevant

Originally Posted by mrsell63

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Carl

My tape is .0057 inches thick. Just convert that to mm.

Jerry

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Carl

.0057 inches = .14478 mm

I get my tape from a store called Harbor Freight in packs of ten rolls.
I don't know if this store does business across the pond where you live.

Jerry

If you have the time to dig out that old german book on razor manufacturing you'll see that the angle they considered correct was something around 17 degrees (you'll get the exact numbers if you put in the ratios from the book).
On the other hand you can't have too acute of an angle or you'll be out of business. Most famously Hartsteel didn't seem to have thought this point through and the first razors they sold had huge ratio of junk - you can read the feedback on the forums.

As far as old sheffield razors, if the spine of a razor is softer than the edge it is not possible to hone that razor to shaving. It's a simple geometrical issue. Actually, if you're really persistent and have nothing better to do you could make it into inverse razor i.e. the edge is where the spine is.
In any case I've honed old razors to where the spine + bevel flats had to end up making 2/3 to 3/4 of the width - with modern fast hones it doesn't take more than few hours. But that's certainly not how these razors were designed to be - for example I have ~200 year old razors that have bevel narrower than what Dovo and TI ships you today from the factory.


The thing is that whenever somebody starts telling me how tape or no tape is the proper way to hone I just learn that there's yet another novice who isn't good with neither hands on experience, nor making up theories that describe things correctly. As long as one does not abuse his razor maintaining it sharp removes so little steel both from the edge and from the spine, that the razor is perfectly good for hundreds and thousands of years. The best advise I have for these people is to learn to hone properly and stop abusing their razors. Then they'll be fine no matter what they choose to do tape-wise.

Originally Posted by earcutter

think to all those razors we have all seen on eBay with worn down spines.

Whenever I see such razor I just move on to another which has had a competent owner

The problem with these things is that the razors are cheap and people are stupid. I imagine their thinking goes something like this: 'to make it sharp I just have to remove steel from both sides, it didn't get sharp, so I must not have removed enough steel'.
It doesn't occur to them that the edge is so delicate that it is not the amount of force, but the uniformity of the honing stroke that is the key to making it sharp.

So they completely ruin the edge in their first stroke and then follow up with thousands equally bad ones making it neither better nor worse, but just chiseling steel away from the razor and dumping the swarf into the drain.

I often wonder how some of those Ebay/antique store razors got so honed out, I doubt I could ever do that much damage.

I tape my mint ones and just hone my other ones.

I tried seperating razors by condition etc. and would tape certain ones and not tape certain other ones and after a short while, I couldn't remember which ones I taped and which ones I didn't. I am a notorius non-notetaker.

So, now I buy tape by the 10 roll pack at Harbor Freight and tape everything. With tape, all razors drag on the hone with just about the same amount of resistance and when the blade begins to suck down onto the hone surface, it is easier for me to discern the moment that feedback occurs.

I am more comfortable with tape but I can understand why some others would rather hone a bare spine. Personal preference is a wonderful thing. Let's just thank the Lord that the government hasn't stuck their nose in this issue yet. They might hire more IRS agents to police spine tape!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jerry
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Originally Posted by mrsell63

I tried seperating razors by condition etc. and would tape certain ones and not tape certain other ones and after a short while, I couldn't remember which ones I taped and which ones I didn't. I am a notorius non-notetaker.

So, now I buy tape by the 10 roll pack at Harbor Freight and tape everything. With tape, all razors drag on the hone with just about the same amount of resistance and when the blade begins to suck down onto the hone surface, it is easier for me to discern the moment that feedback occurs.

I am more comfortable with tape but I can understand why some others would rather hone a bare spine. Personal preference is a wonderful thing. Let's just thank the Lord that the government hasn't stuck their nose in this issue yet. They might hire more IRS agents to police spine tape!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jerry
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Bet if the stores actually started calling it "spine tape" like you just did, we'd have the AMA and FDA (and the IRS shortly thereafter) all over it in a hurry!

Originally Posted by gssixgun

LMAO Eric I see you took Lee's way of making a point


Muhahahaha


(how do I know this will be the only thread Lee reads this week)

You know me too well, scary

Eric, I thought about changing my name just because of that Master Lee debacle, but then I remembered Michael Bolton in Office Space: "why should I change my name? he's the one who sucks"

PS if you tape the entire razor, it never wears down at all

I am glad you started this thread, I almost forgot a weekend test I made about 2 months ago. I was debating about this tape stuff too, especially the one regarding angle change over time. I got out a russian razor I was honing, and emulated the following:

Lets assume you do 20 strokes on a finisher to refresh your razors edge every week, for 50 years, and you shave with it every day, no other razor used. Thats a total of 52.000 strokes.

I did about 10.000 strokes on a 12k Shapton pro, can you imagine how much time and lapping that took?

I measured the razor before and after it, and the difference came out roughly at 0.1mm, so if I would have gone farther, the width loss would have been about 0.5mm for 50 years of constant use, but lets calculate with 1mm. Thats almost nothing, even for a 5/8 razor. So in my opinion this myth is busted, the bevel angle won't change considerably if you care for your razor. Or bettter I should say that it will change, but no human is capable to spot this small of a difference.

I was hoping that you will repost this.

Originally Posted by jeness

I measured the razor before and after it, and the difference came out roughly at 0.1mm, so if I would have gone farther, the width loss would have been about 0.5mm for 50 years of constant use, but lets calculate with 1mm. Thats almost nothing, even for a 5/8 razor.

And that's exactly what everybody with two bits of common sense should've done before ever posting how important the change in the bevel angle is over 'many years'.

As you calculated the change due to hone wear over a person's life time is between 0.5 and 1 degree!!! And that's with very heavy maintenance - with my stropping my maintenance is roughly 10 to 50 times less.

I only wish more people would do a basic thinking before making insane statements about stuff they do not understand. Most of all I expect it from knifemakers who are aspiring to be gurus, and talk about 'science' as if they know what it means.


Of course, abusing razors is a whole different story, and I would simply stay away from those 'experts' regardless of whether they use, or not use a tape.