Thread: UPS Sucks Bum

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

Technically the shipper (seller) is responsible for the goods until delivery unless the terms are "our dock" or they state ownership transfers otherwise. It puts a burden on the seller who in most cases would feel that once he hands the package over to UPS, USPS, etc... his part is over. The shipee (buyer) can always file a non-delivery claim with his credit card company or Paypal and get refunded unless deliver can be proven. The buyer always has more protection than the seller.

I know buyers always want the lowest shipping costs and balk if a razor costs more than $3.00 to ship but without insurance the seller takes all the risk.

Hopefully the package will turn up at some point. Does tracking show any status after arrival in your town?

Tony

Tony, you certainly have more experience with this than I do as I don't run a business and only send things occasionally but...

One thing I remember for a fact from business law class is that businesses have a lot of protection in this country. According to the contract law, the seller has fulfilled his obligation once the package is shipped out. Mere proof of shipment is enough.

Now, it might not be followed to the letter in real life as you really have no leverage against credit card companies but if you were to end up in court, it would be different.

Of course, I only have elementary education in the contract law so if any attorney here can chime in, I'd like to know more for myself.

In a former life, I was a regional operations manager for a technology logistics firm. We shipped thousands of computers, laptops, and peripherals to our project managers all over the country. Of course things lot lost/stolen or damaged after they left our warehouses and before they got to their destination but what found to be amazing was how infrequently it happened maybe an item every couple of moths... it the volume we shipped at it worked out to about 1/3000 delivery failure. That was a rate we were very please to live with. UPS also made some truly herculean efforts to make things right when they did go wrong.

Maybe its different with smaller items or maybe their operation has declined since I left that job (2001). But I was always impressed with UPS.

Ups also has a huge problem finding my house, they take it to the wrong street two out of three times. If they only screw up 1/3000 times I've been no. 1 twice already this year. There is another street in my town with a similar name and thats where they try to take my packages. Since the streets don't have any overlap in their number ranges and are in different zip codes you'd think UPS would figure it out, but they haven't yet and its been a problem at this address for thirty years.

I think under normal contrat law a sellers obligation does end with the sale/payment. But acording to ICC rules things being shipped are different somehow. Since you as a seller contract with the shipper they become your agent and you, and they are responsible for delivery. Of course their terms of service only require reasonable care in making a delivery and if the seller does not take out insurance, the seller loses. They are akways untouchable it seems. Plain moral sense as the original poster pointed out would be the seller did his part when he handed the parcel over to the carrier, period. of course law seldom follow morals or simple right and wrong.

I think this one gets hashed out daily in the Ebay Community Discussions Boards and both "rules" are inhernetly correct...tile transfers at time of payment or title transfers at time of delivery but the type of contract or transaction determines which really applies.

Tony

I think, besides losing/misplacing the shipment, UPS is correct in insisting that the sender has to initiate the search for the shipment. UPS has a contract with the sender, not with the receiver of a shipment. That the receiver paid shipping charges to the sender, is not of UPS' concern, and it does not effect their contract with the sender.
In this area here UPS and USPS have both delivered packages to wrong addresses. I can't say one is better than the other, except that shipments via UPS can be traced online.

There seems to be a rash of this happening lately... I bought a razor from Topher and never received it as well.

Damn shame too. Someone out there is laughing themselves silly with a NOS Butcher & Wade.

I hope they come down with something...

The person who posted the item is the one who has to make the claim (and receive any compensation) That is why it is important to keep all postal receipts until you know an item has been delivered.
As an Ebay seller, I always send an email saying I've posted & give an estimated delivery time. I also ask if they could email when it does arrive. A lot of buyers think the last request is "Feedback Hunting" ~ it's not, I worry about every parcel until I know it's been delivered.
You have to look at ifrom both sides:
As a seller:
I sell an item, wrap it carefully & send it off. Weeks later the buyer is angry 'cos no parcel has arrived & no insurance was taken. I would feel badly done by to recompense the buyer when I know that I have posted the item.
As a buyer:
I buy but never receive, I don't even know if the seller did post and I can't even make a claim with any Postal/parcel services. I just want what I paid for!
Both have a right to be angry ~ I hate the Customs forms that get stuck on the outside of any international parcel: "Detailed item Description & Value" Anyone who handles that parcel could be a collector of that parcels contents.
It's a no win situation for buyer or seller. Worst thing is ~ the item is gone! Damn shame if you've been searching for years.....
If you have paid via Paypal, you can lodge an Item not Received Dispute. Without proof of delivery, the seller is stuffed as Paypal will deduct the money from the sellers account. Scary for me as a seller!
.......momma

I think it's sad that the vendor bear the burden rather than the shipping company. I think Mr Miller stated it as I see it with the Moral vs. Legal obligation.

I the buyer shouldn't have to annoy/berate the seller who acts in good faith. Any definition of "just" would see UPS taking on the burden of effort rather than placing it on either the buyer or the seller. Like the goods and the money, time represents a valuable commodity that can't be replenished.

- Bob

It gets worse...

The seller (me in this case) can't even initiate the claim without the buyer's phone number!
Crazy.