Thread: I'm a Canadian, eh !

Originally Posted by Barry2

- - - I just don't think that it is necessary to have a perfect edge from one end to the other as I said in a previous post. It should be possible to get a shave-sharp bevel on just the first inch or so from the tip, albeit more time-consuming to shave. But . . . . what do I know .

I believe people are telling you it is important to have the bevel set along the whole length of the blade regardless of what you believe. They are right.

When you use a sharpie you mark the whole bevel not just spots along it. Once you have the whole length of the bevel marked you can the see where you are not touching the bevel while honing. The entire bevel should be clean of any sharpie marks.

You haven't said if you have lapped your hones to make sure they are really flat/level.

There can be geometry problems with the blade that will make it difficult to hone.

If you have done the same thing for 2 years while honing and gotten nowhere it is time to do something different, like listen to what folks are trying to tell you.

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

You haven't said if you have lapped your hones to make sure they are really flat/level.

There can be geometry problems with the blade that will make it difficult to hone.
Bob

- - - I will listen to people, but what annoys me is that most people who use straights can tell you what works, but not "why" it works, which is tantamount to saying that they are simply relying on experience. Most people simply don't know why.

As for my 4000/8000 stones, I don't know why you would suggest that they might not be flat; they are virtually brand new with only the little usage of my own.

Originally Posted by Barry2

- - - I will listen to people, but what annoys me is that most people who use straights can tell you what works, but not "why" it works, which is tantamount to saying that they are simply relying on experience. Most people simply don't know why.

As for my 4000/8000 stones, I don't know why you would suggest that they might not be flat; they are virtually brand new with only the little usage of my own.

Theory is a fine thing but goes out the window if you have a razor that is not 100% perfectly made. The spine may be warped/twisted, may not be asymmetrically ground or a number of other flaws that will make it difficult to hone. With experience you begin to recognize if there is a problem and how to compensate by using various different strokes. Even if a razor is in spec with no experience you may not have developed enough of a technique to apply the theory in a practical manner to achieve a properly set bevel. If you can't set the bevel there is no use going up the grit progression, you are in effect just polishing a turd if you do. The frustrating part of learning to hone initially is not being able to apply theory to practice.

If you search in the honing section you will probably find a few threads where the hones as new are not flat/level from the manufacturer. It is pretty common practice to lap new hones before first use to make sure that they are indeed flat/level.

In theory if your razor is in spec and your hone flat/level you will get a constant even contact the entire length of the blade when you do a stroke on the hone. If that is the case and you cannot set a bevel along the whole length of the blade then your technique is lacking somewhere. You have to figure out what you are doing wrong. If your razor is not in spec and/or your hones not flat/level you are just compounding the problem of not being able to set a proper bevel.

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

Theory is a fine thing but goes out the window if you have a razor that is not 100% perfectly made. The spine may be warped/twisted, may not be asymmetrically ground or a number of other flaws that will make it difficult to hone. With experience you begin to recognize if there is a problem and how to compensate by using various different strokes. Even if a razor is in spec with no experience you may not have developed enough of a technique to apply the theory in a practical manner to achieve a properly set bevel. If you can't set the bevel there is no use going up the grit progression, you are in effect just polishing a turd if you do. The frustrating part of learning to hone initially is not being able to apply theory to practice.

If you search in the honing section you will probably find a few threads where the hones as new are not flat/level from the manufacturer. It is pretty common practice to lap new hones before first use to make sure that they are indeed flat/level.

In theory if your razor is in spec and your hone flat/level you will get a constant even contact the entire length of the blade when you do a stroke on the hone. If that is the case and you cannot set a bevel along the whole length of the blade then your technique is lacking somewhere. You have to figure out what you are doing wrong. If your razor is not in spec and/or your hones not flat/level you are just compounding the problem of not being able to set a proper bevel.

Bob

Hmmmm, sounds reasonable, but if I can't be sure that an unused razor and/or an unused hone is in perfect condition, I am not willing to go any farther with it. I could be in for quite a bit more investment. Afterall, if you can't trust the manufacturers to give you a quality piece of equipment, we the consumer are at their mercy, having to spend and spend and spend in order to determine if their gear is as it should be. No way. At least, if I stick to the safety razors, I have full confidence that I am getting a quality product, even if pricey.

Hey Barry, the way to be sure your equipment is in perfect condition is to maintain it as such.
Every hone, new or old needs to be lapped flat and true at the beginning of it's useful life and throughout as used.
The mfgr warrants their grit is in line with the industry standards, but it is the craftsman, or end user that needs to maintain it as such.
New lathe's need to be levelled, new machinery commissioned, new cars or horses 'broken in'.
Razors are no different. Straights need more attention to slight details than any other form of shaving I am familiar with and it is not for everyone.
Sounds like you need more convincing than the folks on here can muster to try some of the basics.
I wish you good luck and good shaving with your DE's, which I too use when in a hurry.
Cheers.

When I purchased a 4000/8000 combination stone, the very first thing I did after watching all the videos? Soak the stone, put a light pencil grid on the surface, and lap the stone.

The result? Right out of the box, the stone was not flat. Both sides needed to be lapped before I could use it. I was surprised, but it was easy to check and easy to lap so why not...

I'd definitely check to see if your stone is flat; particularly if it is new.

The other thing to check is the stroke. The stone is probably wide enough to not require an X stroke, but you should do it anyway. Why? Even after you lap the stones, they are not mathematically flat. They are just as flat as your lapping process allows. Taking the blade across the lapped stone in a X pattern will effectively sum the error in flatness across the stone. On average you will get the most consistent surface for honing you can achieve and thus a blade bevel which is also consistent across the width of the blade.

You might see this in the magic marker test. A spot that is low that doesn't get honed. The X stroke will eliminate that.

Lots of other considerations, but at least get a flat stone applied on average across the width of the blade to start.

my .02,

Ed

Hi there EH, thanks for this sounds good, will try it.

Barry , just think of it like this , you can ask why any time and then you get answers , most of the time we don't hear what is being said, but , there is not a mystery here , razors have a very fine delicatE edge that takes a little time to work on and make them shavable. And there are those who have done the measurements , but back to your why , learn how to shave with a straight before trying to figure out the edge , then you will know why your edge needs to be a certain way, scraping off your face isn't fun, a truly shave ready razor is . Think of it this way, you might want to learn how to fly a plane before you build it and then climb in! If you just take a step back , and do it by the numbers , you'll be honing before you know it , that's all everyone is trying to do is get you on a path of success. And buying hones before you have even learned to shave is not the right way , Good luck. Tc

Hi there tc. Good advice, except that I would like to learn the "why" of flying rather than just how. I would feel ever so much safer, lol.

The why is cause it's faster than walking, and the answer came early in this thread , you just didn't hear it ,, try not asking why so much and grasp the info that is there , Bob said it early on , not all razors geometry is correct hence , the experience level will overcome this. Now back to the dead horse , you ask why , I say shave first then your answer will come. Tc

By the way safer is ok , but sometimes you just got to have faith