Thread: My Learning curve - so far....

Ed, thanks for the link to the crox. I notice that this crox is apparently mostly used as a pigment (as are many of the others I see online). I am not positive, but I think that if you look at the spec sheet at the link you provided, you will see a Chemical Accession Number (CAS-No.) which in this case is 1308-38-9. Someone more knowledgeable than me on this may be able to verify that this number is pretty much a unique identifier for the material. I bet if we look around a bit, we can find a U.S. distributor of material having the same CAS number for use in paints or cosmetics or the like if not specifically as an abrasive. If that is the case, it may open up a few new sources for this stuff.

BTW, the spec sheet for the Kremer crox says that the purity is 98.5% to 99.5% Cr3O2 with predominant particle size of .3um. There is no maximum particle size specified, but if I read it correctly, up to .02% could be trapped in a .045mm (=45um) sieve. This suggests to me that this powder could include particles with a dimension greater than 45 microns in some direction. I am by no means a chemist or expert on this type of thing, but I have a client in the nanotechnology business dealing primarily with nano-carbon particles. If there is any similarity, it is possible that the larger particles are actually agglomerates of smaller particles which when spread on a strop might well break down quickly and disburse into the basic particles averaging .3um in size. (incidentally, the definition of particle size for irregular particles appears to be a little fuzzy, but often means the size in the longest direction, but there are other definitions too!) If people are successfully using the stuff for stropping, the possible presence of larger particles is probably a non-issue. But just couldn't keep the engineer in me beat back .

Oh yea, ordered a couple of loupes today - then remembered that I had a magnifying head band. Examination of the blades under this somewhat greater magnification didn't reveal anything more than what I saw under 10X. One of the loupes I ordered is 60x, so I'll be interested in seeing if it shows anything more of significance.

Jerry

Ok so, if the bevels are meeting and even, go to the 4K.

The goal is to remove all the 1k stria with X strokes on 4k, so you have even 4k stria. Do as many laps as it takes, start at 40 laps with lite pressure. If you need more… do more laps, not more pressure. Check the edge for chipping and ensure the bevels are still meeting.

The other goal is, NOT to create a burr, because when the burr breaks off, you have a ragged edge. If all goes well, go to the 8K.

Here, remove all the 4k stria with even 8K stria. You will notice after the 8k, the edge will get much straighter and more even. Do at least 40 X laps, the goal is to remove 4k stria and straighten the edge.

Once you have removed all the 4k stria you want to polish the edge with 20 weight of the blade laps. Your edge should be laser straight and smooth. Run a Q tip along the edge from heel to toe and it should not snag. Use the visual test to ensure the bevels are still meeting.

Stay on the 8K until all micro-chips are gone from the edge, (little dots of shiny light) here is where extra magnification will pay off.

If all goes well, strop on Chrome Oxide.

Kremer Chrome Oxide is good, mix with mineral oil and paint on 3 in X’s with your finger fairly heavy, let dry and your good to go. I would only use, Kremer, Hand America or SRD Chrome Oxide, I have use all three, do not use any woodworking Chrome Oxide, it is not expensive, buy the good stuff.

When you strop on Chrome Oxide use lite pressure, this is where a lot of guys go wrong, using too much pressure and rolling or breaking the edge, a razor edge is very, very fragile, you cannot see it, at 400 power.

Check the edge with the visual test and if all is well strop on leather 50 laps and shave test, use lite pressure, not like stropping a chisel or knife, lite pressure.

Water stones only need to be lapped to 300-400 grit. A DMT 8C is a great plate, although I just bought a 300 grit, I Wood plate and it is a very nice plate without the stiction and about the same price as a DMT. A 300 ish diamond plate make lapping much easier. You want to do a quick lap every time you hone, to refresh the stone face.

If the razor does not shave well, either the bevel was not completely set or too much pressure was use and rolled or chipped the edge.

Avoid setting the bevel with a Diamond plate, chances are you will get chipping in the high grit stones. They are too aggressive, you can flatten the bevels with them, if breadknifeing for repair, but leave a thin line on the edge before the bevels are meeting, then bring the bevels together with the King 1k, Kings work just fine.

Too much pressure is a common problem, a general rule, medium pressure to set the bevel, lite pressure for the middle stones and lite pressure for high grit stones, finish with weight of the blade. Strop with lite to weight of the blade.

With a linen and leather strop you can keep a razor shaving for a long, long time, with a good Chrome Ox strop… indefinitely.

Anything after that is the elusive 2 percent of keenness and comfort… that many of us chase… how to get there… is the question.

Originally Posted by Jerrybass

Ed, thanks for the link to the crox. I notice that this crox is apparently mostly used as a pigment (as are many of the others I see online). I am not positive, but I think that if you look at the spec sheet at the link you provided, you will see a Chemical Accession Number (CAS-No.) which in this case is 1308-38-9. Someone more knowledgeable than me on this may be able to verify that this number is pretty much a unique identifier for the material. I bet if we look around a bit, we can find a U.S. distributor of material having the same CAS number for use in paints or cosmetics or the like if not specifically as an abrasive. If that is the case, it may open up a few new sources for this stuff.

BTW, the spec sheet for the Kremer crox says that the purity is 98.5% to 99.5% Cr3O2 with predominant particle size of .3um. There is no maximum particle size specified, but if I read it correctly, up to .02% could be trapped in a .045mm (=45um) sieve. This suggests to me that this powder could include particles with a dimension greater than 45 microns in some direction. I am by no means a chemist or expert on this type of thing, but I have a client in the nanotechnology business dealing primarily with nano-carbon particles. If there is any similarity, it is possible that the larger particles are actually agglomerates of smaller particles which when spread on a strop might well break down quickly and disburse into the basic particles averaging .3um in size. (incidentally, the definition of particle size for irregular particles appears to be a little fuzzy, but often means the size in the longest direction, but there are other definitions too!) If people are successfully using the stuff for stropping, the possible presence of larger particles is probably a non-issue. But just couldn't keep the engineer in me beat back .

The kremer crox and feox is the same as used by whipped dog and many use it and have for some time. You get 100g also which is a LOT. I also have the hand America paste and that bottle would be enough to last a few lifetimes.

All great advice from some very experienced shavers. One thing to emphasis and the thing that eluded me initially, make sure your bevel is set. If you miss this everything else on the subsequent hones is a waste of time. After you've been shaving for some time you'll learn when you've achieved a decent shaving edge, it's taken me well over a year and during that time I've collected over 50 SR's. The early ones that I'd honed and thought shave ready I now realize need to all go back to the bevel set stage, but all this comes with experience.
I tried all the bevel set tests and now use the TNT, my interpretation is if the edge grips a wet thumbnail all the way along that's the bevel set and time to move up the hones after a final 6 passes on the 1000k to clear the slight damage from the test. I forget every other test from that point onwards until I try a shave if that works well particularly ATG then it gets a big tick and forms part of my rotation. As you move up the hones another thing that took time to get right was the reduction in pressure untill your using just the weight of the blade. Sounds simple but that also takes time to finesse. One final point someone on here suggested keeping a record of each razors history on the hones and any touch ups beyond stropping, well worth it in my opinion, I soon lost track of how each razor had been treated and whether tape had been used or not. I asked the question when at first I sent them out for honing or bought shave ready blades but lost track. So from about a month ago I put together a simple spreadsheet and religiously maintain both the honing pattern, touch ups and how each one shaved. Anal, yes but it works for me

Thanks again for yet more great guidance!
I feel like I have managed to get my GD into reasonably useful condition and I am looking forward to getting a look at the edges for comparison with the Whipped Dog edges with a more powerful loupe that I ordered. For now, I am in a bit of a holding pattern and using the GD a bit while continuing to work on it. I want to keep the WD razor in current condition for comparison while figuring out the arm, hand, finger, thumb wrist contortions needed to do the shaving in all locations. For now, I am having decent success with the cheeks and neck, but I am putting the chin line on hold until I get a better grasp on things.
This weekend I am looking forward to meeting up with some guys in my area that invited me to join them, so I am excited to see what I can learn there. Hope to also get a critique on sharpness of the razors and whatever else I can learn. So, I am likely to be jumping back in with both feet over the weekend.
BTW, Anthony, I know what you mean about developing the light touch. I think that is the likely cause of my "shave ready" GD being not so shave ready! I am getting there, but just the weight of the blade is way tougher to grasp than seems possible!

Originally Posted by Jerrybass

Thanks again for yet more great guidance!
I feel like I have managed to get my GD into reasonably useful condition and I am looking forward to getting a look at the edges for comparison with the Whipped Dog edges with a more powerful loupe that I ordered. For now, I am in a bit of a holding pattern and using the GD a bit while continuing to work on it. I want to keep the WD razor in current condition for comparison while figuring out the arm, hand, finger, thumb wrist contortions needed to do the shaving in all locations. For now, I am having decent success with the cheeks and neck, but I am putting the chin line on hold until I get a better grasp on things.
This weekend I am looking forward to meeting up with some guys in my area that invited me to join them, so I am excited to see what I can learn there. Hope to also get a critique on sharpness of the razors and whatever else I can learn. So, I am likely to be jumping back in with both feet over the weekend.
BTW, Anthony, I know what you mean about developing the light touch. I think that is the likely cause of my "shave ready" GD being not so shave ready! I am getting there, but just the weight of the blade is way tougher to grasp than seems possible!

The light touch is definitely the hardest part. It's one of those things you can't understand until you "feel" it. Then you say "Oh, that's what they mean". I tried to use such a light touch I found myself lifting the heel off the strop or stone. To correct for that I'd lift the toe. It's finally coming together for me after 15 months of practicing. Seems like suddenly everything falls into place and THEN all the advice makes sense.

I had the pleasure of attending the Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill shaving meet-up group meeting on Saturday. What a great group of guys! I got lots of tips and an examination of my Gold Dollar to see if I was in the ball part of sharp. Received pretty good confirmation that I am getting the hang of it ("Pretty good - but we can do better!") followed by some one on one honing instruction. Lots of other good tips along the way and I am looking forward to the next meeting. Also received several kind invitations to come over work on the various stages of learning. My razor went home quite sharp, but nobody had crox with them. When I got home, I did a few laps with crox and then a good stropping followed by my most successful shave yet! Thanks to all for your guidance. Looking forward to the next get together.
Jerry

Jerry,

Sounds like you learned more in one day than some of us do in months. I guess that's why one on ones and meetups are so highly recommended.

Here's to increasingly successful shaves!

Yes for sure. Since I am an engineer by training, I tend to learn pretty well from reading, so I also got a bit of confirmation that I was doing some things reasonably well. These are a great bunch of very generous and helpful nice guys. So I definitely learned a lot and look forward to finding time to get together one on one with some of them when my day job calms down a little!

Cheers!

Jerry

An hour of hands on is like 6 months of beating you head and razor on a stone.

Last night I coached a guy on stropping for maybe 15 minutes after watching him stop for 30 seconds. Made some recommendations and showed him how, I do it.

I could see the light bulb come on for him, as he said “Oh… I get it”.

I showed him on a Canvas Strop… He grabbed the Nakayama hanging on the door knob… and I said, “No, no… let’s use this one here…”