Thread: Help! Noob cant decide upon a finishing hone

Originally Posted by WoodyHayes

Thanks. Here comes the stupid newbie question that probably has been asked and answered hundreds of times, but I haven't found a thread yet.

If I am wanting to learn honing, what am I losing out on if I purchase the Chinese 12K instead of the Norton 4K/8K? I can venture a guess and say that the 12K is to be used only for "almost shave ready" razors only, but that would be a guess. So if I were to purchase a straight at an antique shop, would the Chinese 12K not be a good option to hone if it needed a lot of work? Any help on this basic question is greatly appreciated.

Since I haven't used a Chinese 12K you'll have to take this for what it is, and keep in mind that I'm doing some assumptations here, mostely that the UF and the Chinese 12K work the same way:

I've started out with a finishing hone, the Spyderco UF to be exact, and a shaveready razor from the BST. It was possible to keep the razor in the ballpark of shaveready with the finisher,but i wasn't until I got my Norton that I could start to learn to hone, so if you are planning on getting razors from antique shops or ebay my best bet would be to get the Norton 4K/8K and learn on that and use a pasted strop or pasted paddle to finish on, if you have to finish on something finer than 8K. If the pastes doesn't get you the finish you desire then you can look around for a finisher, and I did notice Lynn chiming in with an finishing option.

Regardless of the type all 12ks are pretty much the same as far as what they will do for you. They are finishing hones. If you are going to be buying off Eboy or from antique shops the 12K by itself will be inadequate unless you are very lucky. You will need a 4K/8K hone and maybe even a 1K depending on what the condition the razor's edge is in. If I was in your shoes I would get the 4K/8K and go with a pasted strop for finishing and when you have the spare change get the coticule.

Good evening Gents,

Wow, thank you all for all the suggestions. I have taken a look at the Shapton 16k at the advice of the honemeister and it looks very interesting. This is one that I have not thoroughly researched yet. Does any body know if it needs to be lapped, and if so does it require a special lapping stone?

While Shapton would be more than happy to sell you one of their Glass Diamond Lapping Plates for near $300, the answer is no, you don't NEED one. I can't help you if you WANT one, but I can say that you can flatten a Shapton hone on nothing more than something nice and flat, a flat piece of glass or a polished marble/granite tile from the hardware store... heck, even a nice flat section of your kitchen counter top will probably suffice and some wet/dry abrasive paper. Something in the range of 320 grit would be about right... The next step up, and what I would suggest, is a DMT D8C 325 grit diamond plate that sells for somewhere around $50. The DMT would serve all your hone flattening needs for many years if you should end up adding more hones down the road and who doesn't if they stick with straight shaving. The DMT makes short work of maintaining hones and keeps the mess down to a minimum as it can be done in the sink with the water running. Paper wears out quickly, requiring purchasing again and again and it's tough to find a piece of glass or a tile that can match the flatness of the DMT which the factory specs at a max of 0.001" from perfectly flat.

That's my suggestion and it'll work with any of the hones you might buy though I don't like the idea of flattening Spyderco hones with it... I wore my DMT down significantly flattening one Spyderco UF and will never do it again... my DMT still works fine for hones but it's not quite as good for sharpening other tools I have in the shop.


Regards

Christian

One newbie to another, I started out with the Norton 220/1000, 4K/8K & flattening stone set. Proceeding to a serious case of H.A.D. I have since added quite an array of hones to the mix. If I had it to do over again I would get a DMT8C for flattening, a DMT D8E for removing chips, setting bevels and a Norton 4/8 with the Chinese 12K to finish. With that setup you would be ready for anything. Of course the Shaptons are great but for a begginer the above will take care of anything you run across on ebay or in antique shops. People will say you don't need all of it and that is true but with that setup you are read for anything. The more exotic stuff can be picked up later if you become interested in further exploration.

Good afternoon Gents,

I believe through all the comments I have finally narrowed it down. I am going to go with a Shapton 16k and a Chinese 12k (at $30, I figure it wouldn't be a bad thing to own one). I figure my birthday is comming up and my mother in law wanted ideas for me. I'm sure she will get me one of the two!

As for finsihing with these stones, I have a couple more questions;

1) Would it be feasible to go from my norton 4000/8000 directly to the Shapton or should I go from Norton to Chinese to Shapton?
2) If I only used the Norton and Shapton, how many passes should I do on the Shapton if I did a 3/3, 1/3, 1/3-5 pyramid on the Norton as described in Lynn's DVD?
3) If I was to go from Norton to Chinese to Shapton, how many pases on the Chinese and Shapton?

I realize that these may be YMMV questions, however if any one can give me a safe zone to stay in, (for instance 10 pass increments on the Shapton) that would be great. Thank you all so much for the help. Cheers

Well, If I may be so bold, I'd suggest something a little different. You already have the 4k/8k Norton, so why not get the Shapton 16k for a finishing stone, save the $30 + shipping on the Chinese and get the DMT plate instead. You can go straight from the 8k Norton to the 16k Shapton. To really bring things to a fine finish, I'd go to a bench/paddle strop with Chromium Oxide as a finish ( you can make a bench strop for not that much money). I like to do 50 laps on my bench strop, it makes for a very nice smooth shave. When the razor doesn't quite shave as well as you like, I'd go back to the paddle strop first and usually that's all it takes, if it doesn't seem to help you can drop back to the 16k Shapton.. when that doesn't work you're back to doing a full hone job.

As for number of passes, pyramids and the like, I'm not the guy to ask. I don't use pyramids as I feel the bevel needs to be fully formed at the 2k/4k level and the rest is polishing. For me it takes as many strokes as it takes.... each razor is different and will respond when they are good and ready. I just touched up one of my more difficult razors and gave it 10 on the 4k, 20 on the 8k and 40 on the 16k and then 50 on the pasted bench strop.... It shaves great but I could have done more on the 4k now that I've had a good look at it with my 30x loupe. It's popping hairs but still not *quite* as good as my best razor. To be honest, this may be as good as this razor will ever get.

If your razor is not over honed when you go to the 16k, you can safely go 10 strokes and check.... You can check sooner if you like, no sense in wasting steel but fast as the Shapton is, it's not THAT fast.

I don't have the Chinese hone you mention but I'd trade it in a heartbeat for a DMT D8C to handle the lapping. Finding your ultimate edge is a journey that will take some time.... good basic tools will serve you well for a long long time.


Regards

Christian

I agree with the above completely. The Chinese 12k would be redundant and the DMT is an excellent suggestion.

I forgot to mention that I do have a DMT D8C on the way as well.
Cheers

Originally Posted by G Q

Good afternoon Gents,

I believe through all the comments I have finally narrowed it down. I am going to go with a Shapton 16k and a Chinese 12k (at $30, I figure it wouldn't be a bad thing to own one). I figure my birthday is comming up and my mother in law wanted ideas for me. I'm sure she will get me one of the two!

As for finsihing with these stones, I have a couple more questions;

1) Would it be feasible to go from my norton 4000/8000 directly to the Shapton or should I go from Norton to Chinese to Shapton?
2) If I only used the Norton and Shapton, how many passes should I do on the Shapton if I did a 3/3, 1/3, 1/3-5 pyramid on the Norton as described in Lynn's DVD?
3) If I was to go from Norton to Chinese to Shapton, how many pases on the Chinese and Shapton?

I realize that these may be YMMV questions, however if any one can give me a safe zone to stay in, (for instance 10 pass increments on the Shapton) that would be great. Thank you all so much for the help. Cheers

Can you tell me where the Chinese 12k is sold for $30? Thanks.