Thread: What is overhoning?

The obvious answer is grinding away so much metal that the razor is no longer useful but I suspect that the answer is not quite so simple. I've read numerous posts warning against overhoning yet David Polan, if I understand him correctly, seems to dispell the theory of overhoning in his 9 part video series. Assuming this is a valid concern, what are the indications and results?

This is of particular importance to me as I have been working on my DD Goldedge for a couple of weeks now. I started with the razor doing little more than pulling whiskers out of my face. I use a Norton 4K/8K and, as of late, a yellow coticule followed by the customary linen and leather. All of the posts I've read indicate that you can set the bevel with the 4K (without a 1K) but it will take quite a bit longer. After a series of aggressive pyramids with the 4K/8K, each followed by a test shave (I'm so inexperienced at this that the TPT, TNT, and HHT tests are useless to me so I just shave instead), I can now get a pretty good shave but with some pulling around the chin. I seem to have reached a plateau in that I am unable to get past some pulling and slight irritation around the chin.

How should I proceed from here? Continue with the aggressive pyramids or switch to conservative pyramids? At what point does "overhoning" become a concern, if at all?

Please base any remarks on the assumption that my honing, shaving, and stropping techniques are good as I believe that they are.

David is very experienced and knows of what he is talking!

The best definition I can give will sound a little off putting but I mean every word!
Over honing is most commonly something that someone who is new to sharpening razors thinks he has done when what he has actually done is not honed enough or did not set a proper bevel on a lower grit stone before he went to a higher grit stone or final polisher!
I really don't understand pyramids and honing is something that is perfected only with practice so I don't know how to best help! I am certain someone will come along who can though!

In my experience, I have never overhoned a razor. I think a lot of honing has to do with common sense. I think it would be common sense that if you are doing pyramids for 7 hours and you haven't gotten a good shave then something is wrong. First thing you could do is step back and analyze everything you are doing/have done. After that either the problem is apparent or it's back to the drawing board. For me I tryed out doing a lot of pyramids when I first started honing, but they didn't really catch on for me and my particular style of doing things. They just never worked as well as I would have liked them to. Now I'm not saying that pyramids don't work, just that a lot of the experience we gather in honing comes from experimentation. Some razors respond better to one treatment than another.

I really don't know much about coticules, but I guess I hear they are in the 8-12k range? A lot of guys like polishing with at least a 12k stone or up, so some chin irritation off something not as high could be normal. Another thing you may try is just doing some laps on the 8k or coticule without the pyramids. Make sure the edge is fully polished. Other than that I don't know what to say lol. Don't be afraid to try new honing methods. Just use common sense and caution. It doesn't sound like you have an overhoned razor. Then again, I haven't experienced one .

As David Polan says in the video most razors sent to him that guys couldn't get sharp don't have an adequate bevel set Using a 1K or 1200K stone is the most efficient way I have found to set a bevel. A 4K may do it but for me it will take a lot longer and the 1K is worth the price. Basics like the magic marker test and magnification to check progress are essential to me and pay off.

The TPT was elusive to me until Randy told me to try it with a DE razor blade to get an idea of what a sharp blade felt like. As i am working on the 1K setting the bevel Randy had said to use the TNT and the TPT to check progress. Once the TNT is achieved stick with the TPT. He told me to use the TPT early in the bevel setting to get used to the feel of the test and that and the DE blade helped me to get the hang of it.

In my experience with a number of Dubl Ducks bought from the bay the reason barbers of the past loved them is that they are easy to sharpen to shave ready. If your razor is pulling it isn't sharp enough and the initial bevel may be the culprit. This is where the magnification comes in. You can see where the bevel or OTOH if over honing is the issue.

Another suggestion that was a big help was having a sharp razor honed by a honemiester to have something to compare to. In this case The Topher was the honemiester and I was lucky that he lived close by and let me watch as he got my Goldedge transformed from a butter knife to passing the HHT and shaving superbly.

I am not an expert at honing but IMHO overhoning is when you create a wire edge at the blade edge that folds over and potentially crumbles in odd ways when you try to use the blade. Now that sounds bad but given the technique that is used to hone razors, I have never actually created this condition on a razor in good condition. In other words, if you are flipping the blade and honing on both sides equally and if you are letting the blade do the work on the hone and not applying any pressure, then it would seem very difficult if not impossible to create a wire edge.
I have occasionally created a wire edge when doing some restoration where the bevel needed lots of work and I was doing some circular honing on one side of the blade on a coarse hone. However, after the bevel is exactly the way you want it on both sides, if the wire edge remains, it is easily removed with a little back honing. You would want to remove the wire edge before progressing to the next finer level of hone.

Lawman, I would assume that if you are only getting pulling on the chin with the rest of the face going fairly smoothly that the bevel is set. I would go with a few back hone strokes and concentrate only on the couticule, a few on the linen and double whatever you are doing on the leather- very accurately- just a few bad straps could be what's dubbing your edge slightly, enough to pull. then you can return to normal stropping.

Overhoning occurs when the tip of the cutting edge becomes so thin, that it can no longer withstand the forces of the impact with the honing particles. As a results the edge starts to crumble away with each successive honing stroke. Under magnification, a slightly overhoned edge shows very tiny fragments being knocked off the edge. A severely overhoned edge looks like the microscopical equivalent of barb wire.
Some hones are more prone to cause overhoning, and the pressure put on the razor is another contributing factor.
The shave with an overhoned razor is very irritating.

Nortons have a reputation for overhoning. The idea of the pyramids is to sneek up to sharpness, thus avoiding the overhoning risk.
Coticules don't overhone. The sharpness maxes out wiich prevents the edge to become so thin it starts to deteriorate.

I feel overhoning is often overstated. Newbies should be more aware of the need for a good cutting bevel, before they jump to the high grit polishing hones. A certain fear for overhoning seems to often get in the way of that goal.

Overhoning is easily corrected by a few backwards strokes on the hone that caused it. After that a few very light regular strokes are all it takes to create a fine bevel and proceed with the next hone in the progression.

Hope this helps,

Bart.

Netsurfr's description of overhoning is correct. Barber hones are very prone to overhoning--you must finish with a few toe-leading backstrokes, then a few forward strokes, to deburr the edge. Waterstones are much less prone to overhoning, and with Coticules it is said that it's nearly impossible to overhone (Randy claims to have done it once, but it took around 500 strokes).

I set bevels with a DMT1200 as I feel a 4k is a finishing hone and takes too long to do the job correctly. The diamonds will cut fast and leave a good bevel for you to finish. I then move on to a blue belgian 4000 which also cuts fast and leaves a polish more like a 6k stone and then I go to a coticule, 8k and then strop on natural leather.

You can get abrasion on your chin using any razor no matter how well it's honed and stropped. Work on your technique. Don't forget to pull the skin taught as that's really important to a quality shave.