Thread: Honemeister sharp

OK, I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but I can't help it...

I've now had three shaves with a "Glen Sharp" blade. Each time, I did half my first WTG pass with the Glen Sharp blade, and the other half with the sharpest blade I've been able to produce so far.

On day one, there was a huge difference; Glen Sharp handily beat my best work, and allowed me to go XTG then ATG for my first BBS straight shave.

Yesterday morning, I worked on another blade, adding my newly acquired 12k Chinese stone to the works. I honestly thought I had a match for Glen Sharp. I had LASIK done yesterday afternoon, and only had time for a quick WTG pass. Glen Sharp still beat my best work, although not by much.

This morning, I did another 25 laps on the 12k Chinese, 25 on .25 diamond paste, and 100 leather. The WTG pass was a tie! I thought for sure I had matched Glen Sharp! Then I did a half face XTG with Glen Sharp.. wow, that was smooth. Then the other half XTG with my blade. It was possible, but certainly not comfortable. I had to switch back to Glen Sharp for the remaining half of the XTG pass on the chin and lip. I did end up having to switch to a DE for the final ATG pass.

This whole thing has me wondering how many new guys have given up after they have had nothing but uncomfortable shaves due either to not sharpening a brand new blade, or only shaving with a blade that they had sharpened themselves.

Hmmm. Several variables working here. Are they the same razor type (2 Dovo's, etc...)? Did you edge start with a good bevel prior to putting on the edge? You mention the polishing stone, but not what work had been done to it previously. You might want to put an entry in the Basic Honing forum and ask there. Don't give up on it! Get some good information on the basics before going any further.

All that overworking on the super fine grits must be over honing your edge. Use that stuff sparingly.

X

Originally Posted by xman

All that overworking on the super fine grits must be over honing your edge. Use that stuff sparingly.

X

Do you think the following recipe is one for overhoning?

[another] 25 laps on the 12k Chinese, 25 on .25 diamond paste

25 might be a lot on one paste, but I haven't experienced overhoning from a dozen or so light laps on 0.25 diamond myself... not sure if that is really overworking I guess. You could probably hone on the chinese for days before seeing a wire edge it's such a slow stone

from what i have read recently i think that i am going to spend more quality time on the 1k and 4k and even 8k before i hit the finishers. everywhere i read guys say it makes a big difference in the end if you don't rush through the low grits, which is kinda what i was doing. i was settling for just barely passing the HHT rather then going the extra step. i get good enough shaves but they aren't the best and i know it. that is my next idea to see if i can step things up a bit. there have been a couple posts about doubling the amount of laps on the hone when you go up in grit, but only a couple. one variable at a time for me

Originally Posted by FloorPizza

This morning, I did another 25 laps on the 12k Chinese, 25 on .25 diamond paste, and 100 leather. The WTG pass was a tie! I thought for sure I had matched Glen Sharp! Then I did a half face XTG with Glen Sharp.. wow, that was smooth. Then the other half XTG with my blade. It was possible, but certainly not comfortable. I had to switch back to Glen Sharp for the remaining half of the XTG pass on the chin and lip. I did end up having to switch to a DE for the final ATG pass.

This whole thing has me wondering how many new guys have given up after they have had nothing but uncomfortable shaves due either to not sharpening a brand new blade, or only shaving with a blade that they had sharpened themselves.

So you did another 25 on the 12K and then 25 on .25 diamond, how many laps you have done on .25 diamond in total for the razor, my experiences with .25 is that it will ruin your edge pretty fast if you do to many laps.

If you want to learn to hone I suggest you stop using diamond past for a while and concentrate on getting the most out of your 12K before you take a step up grit wise.

I think dward brought up a good point above. Are you comparing 2 of the same razor? I'm guessing you sent your good/best razor to Glen and you're working on a second best or practice razor. Even if they are both of the same brand the blades could be quite different and take or hold an edge differently. You should be comparing the same blades.

Originally Posted by FloorPizza

OK, I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but I can't help it...

I've now had three shaves with a "Glen Sharp" blade. Each time, I did half my first WTG pass with the Glen Sharp blade, and the other half with the sharpest blade I've been able to produce so far.

On day one, there was a huge difference; Glen Sharp handily beat my best work, and allowed me to go XTG then ATG for my first BBS straight shave.

Yesterday morning, I worked on another blade, adding my newly acquired 12k Chinese stone to the works. I honestly thought I had a match for Glen Sharp. I had LASIK done yesterday afternoon, and only had time for a quick WTG pass. Glen Sharp still beat my best work, although not by much.

This morning, I did another 25 laps on the 12k Chinese, 25 on .25 diamond paste, and 100 leather. The WTG pass was a tie! I thought for sure I had matched Glen Sharp! Then I did a half face XTG with Glen Sharp.. wow, that was smooth. Then the other half XTG with my blade. It was possible, but certainly not comfortable. I had to switch back to Glen Sharp for the remaining half of the XTG pass on the chin and lip. I did end up having to switch to a DE for the final ATG pass.

This whole thing has me wondering how many new guys have given up after they have had nothing but uncomfortable shaves due either to not sharpening a brand new blade, or only shaving with a blade that they had sharpened themselves.

Floorpizza, I couldn't help myself having a great laugh while I read your post. Not that I don't symphatize with you, but the way you expressed your frustration is just plain comical genius. "Glen Sharp... " I guess that's something like "Owens Quick" or "Hickock Fast".

And you're not even treating it fair: Glen Sharp becomes duller with each use and you're comparing it to your freshly honed edge. Totally unfair, and when Glen reads this, he 's going to be very upset.

But seriously, having a perfectly honed razor is an advantage when you're learning the skill yourself, but if you allow it to cause despair, you're not doing justice to yourself.
Learning how to hone takes time. You don't need to aim for immortal sharpness, right from square one. The first thing you need to accomplish is basic shavereadiness. Such a razor shaves well without hanging up on hairs or hurting you while you shave and does not cause skin irritation that lasts longer than 10 minutes after the shave. Once you can achieve that, you can try to expand your horizon. But even then, the results are always a combination of 4 things: your knowlegde, your skills to bring the knowledge into practice, the capabilities of your honing tools, the capacity of the razor to take the edge you're aiming for. There's really no shortcut for either one of those. You can buy the same set of hones Glen uses. You can buy a razor that you know to take an awesome edge. You can read everything there is to know. But you can't rush the time it takes you to really figure it out and you can't rush the time it takes to train your cerebrum for controlling a good honing stroke.

On a slightly more practical note. Honing is not very complicated, but it is very easy to throw in a monkey wrench somewhere during the progression. Once happened, the results will always be flawed, until you go back and take corrective action. This means that if 50 laps on your Chinese 12K don't cut it, 50 more laps will hardly ever solve the problem. The problem is earlier in your honing sequence. The "double your stroke count each time you step up to a fine hone" makes no sense. There are way too much variables at stake to rely on such a simple rule. The double amount is usually more than what is needed. On some hones this introduces a risk for overhoning and it always introduces the risk that you loose concentration and perform one off-stroke. Suppose you accidently lift the spine during half a stroke. Because the entire honing action is briefly diverted to the tip of the edge, that always causes significant rounding. If it happens on a fast hone in the bevel-setting range, the next strokes will correct the flaw, provided that you don't loose it again. If the same thing happens on a finishing hone, that hone might not be able to correct the resulting roundness. (cfr. my blue sentence).
One of the most difficult lessons I had to learn with regards to honing, was to stop all wishfull thinking. If a test, whether that's a TNT, TPT, cutting arm hair or a hanging hair, tells me something 's off at a certain stage during the honing process, I know now that will never rectify itself miraculously. If you throw all the right parts into a car, you will never accidentally get a working engine, no more than you will get a sharp razor without succesfully completing each separate stage.

I took me over three months before I could hone a razor to basic shavereadiness with some confidence. I bet you'll have a breakthrough anytime soon, followed by another setback of course . That's just the way these things go.

All the best,
Bart.

Thanks for the responses/help, everyone. And especially to Bart, for appreciating my (mostly warped) sense of humor...

The razor I've been putting up against Glen Sharp is a Hill & Son Sheffield blade in very good condition, save for the extensive honing wear on the spine. Interestingly, I haven't been able to find out any information about Hill & Son razors at all. Until today, that is. There's a guy on eBay selling a matched set of Hill & Son razors, both blades in mediocre condition, in their original case for $400. The only visible difference I can see between my razor and the matched set is my scales are black, the ones on ebay are white. So I guess I'll settle for $175. Here's the matched set.... FINE ANTIQUE19TH C. PAIR OF PRESENTATION CASED RAZORS - eBay (item 400005959129 end time Dec-01-08 12:22:08 PST)

Anyway, today was proof that even a blind pig finds a truffle occasionally. I put another 25 laps on the Chinese 12k, stropped the crap out of it, and setup the re-match. I'm very happy to announce it was a tie: both blades felt equally as comfy WTG and XTG. And it only took a total of about six hours of work to do it.

Edit: I really think it was inadequate stropping that was responsible for the lack of comfort. I'm using a paddle strop, and I think it requires a *bunch* more laps than a hanging strop. Tony Miller treats the leather on paddle strops to give it more "draw", and I'm sure it helps, but I think you end up doing more laps with it anyway.

Originally Posted by FloorPizza

I'm very happy to announce it was a tie: both blades felt equally as comfy WTG and XTG. And it only took a total of about six hours of work to do it.

I told you... Glen Sharp would dull eventually...



(but seriously)
Congratulations man,
Enjoy your success,

Bart.