Thread: "Shave Ready" ... Yeah, Right.

Originally Posted by Chris L

Where did you get the information that a coticule is "coarse"? We may need to have the person that posted such info make a correction, addendum or clarification if that info is in the Wiki.

Chris L

Here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/285357-post16.html

Originally Posted by Cornelius

Here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/285357-post16.html

This is my fault.

I linked to that post a couple of days ago. I should have linked to the entire thread.
It's an advanced discussion. Coticules don't rely to grit ratings well.
Peoples always want to think of hones as of sandpaper. They want to give each hone a number and line them up in a honing progression. Coticules do not work that way.

80% of my presence on this forum is because I like to help people out with honing and shaving.
This makes me want to give up.

I am sorry.

Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

This is my fault.

I linked to that post a couple of days ago. I should have linked to the entire thread.
It's an advanced discussion. Coticules don't rely to grit ratings well.
Peoples always want to think of hones as of sandpaper. They want to give each hone a number and line them up in a honing progression. Coticules do not work that way.

80% of my presence on this forum is because I like to help people out with honing and shaving.
This makes me want to give up.

I am sorry.
Bart.

Don't be so hard on yourself. Your input and help is most valuable. When the topic is something as arcane as hones (and worse yet, finishing stones) there will be the occasional confused moment.

Originally Posted by Bart

This is my fault.

I linked to that post a couple of days ago.

Yep, that's where I got it from.

Originally Posted by Bart

Peoples always want to think of hones as of sandpaper. They want to give each hone a number and line them up in a honing progression.

Yes, I'd like to picture mentally where these fit in the process. Telling from the videos, it's after the 4k side of the Norton?

Originally Posted by Bart

Coticules do not work that way.

That's the part I dont understand.

Originally Posted by Bart

80% of my presence on this forum is because I like to help people out with honing and shaving.
This makes me want to give up.

I am sorry.

Bart.

Perhaps you could explain where the coticules fit in the honing progression? I seem to gather that the difference is related to particle shape in the coticule. Wouldnt that give it a sort of, err... classifiable abrasiveness, even if it's not a grid in the sense of a FEPA / CAMI standard?

Coticules have garnets instead of the sharp particles that you'd find on most synthetic hones.
Garnets are (more or less) round, multifaceted particles. With water and another small piece of Coticule, you can produce an abrasive milk (generally called "slurry" on SRP) on the surface of the Coticule. In the slurry the garnets spin underneath the steel and act as tiny grinding balls. That makes a Coticule with slurry a relatively fast hone, but the resulting scratch pattern is much gentler that that of an comparably fast synthetic hone. On the other hand, when you don't produce slurry but instead use only plain water on the hone, the garnets stay partially embedded in the surface and the hone becomes much slower, and the scratches are very shallow. Therefor it is very good in slowly smoothing out the scratch pattern of even amazingly high-grit synthetic hones. The polish that a Coticule leaves at an edge seems, for many shavers, to hold the ideal combination between smoothness and keenness.
Bottom line: Coticules are very much "double use" which makes them versatile, and the only hones in the world (to my knowledge) that can be used to give a razor a full honing with just one hone. Beware, this is not easy to do and the razor must be in reasonable condition.

With slurry, most Coticules are fast enough to do the work of coarser hones. You then need some in between stone to really boost the keenness of the razor. Once you're there, you can go back to the coticule, with water this time, and give it the final polish for a smooth shave. This is only one of many ways to use a Coticule.

I hope this clears some things up for you.

Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

Garnets are (more or less) round, multifaceted particles. With water and another small piece of Coticule, you can produce an abrasive milk (generally called "slurry" on SRP) on the surface of the Coticule. In the slurry the garnets spin underneath the steel and act as tiny grinding balls. That makes a Coticule with slurry a relatively fast hone, but the resulting scratch pattern is much gentler that that of an comparably fast synthetic hone. On the other hand, when you don't produce slurry but instead use only plain water on the hone, the garnets stay partially embedded in the surface and the hone becomes much slower, and the scratches are very shallow. Therefor it is very good in slowly smoothing out the scratch pattern of even amazingly high-grit synthetic hones. The polish that a Coticule leaves at an edge seems, for many shavers, to hold the ideal combination between smoothness and keenness.
Bottom line: Coticules are very much "double use" which makes them versatile, and the only hones in the world (to my knowledge) that can be used to give a razor a full honing with just one hone. Beware, this is not easy to do and the razor must be in reasonable condition.

I see... wow, sounds good! The slurry you're mentioning and that I saw in the video reminds me of the Kasumi 1000 stone Ihave for my kitchen knives, except that that produces slurry without the need to use the small stone.

Originally Posted by Bart

With slurry, most Coticules are fast enough to do the work of coarser hones. You then need some in between stone to really boost the keenness of the razor. Once you're there, you can go back to the coticule, with water this time, and give it the final polish for a smooth shave. This is only one of many ways to use a Coticule.

So which color coticule are you talking about? Blue or yellow? Which stomes do I need before using a coticule?

When I look back to when I started the first straight razor forum, there was virtually no straight razor information available. I am grateful that we have so much information and even more grateful to the fantastic membership who are ever willing to help people out in every aspect of the sport.

The more you know about straight razors and honing and restoration and shaving, the more you want to know.......tis a good ting!!



Lynn

Originally Posted by Lynn

When I look back to when I started the first straight razor forum, there was virtually no straight razor information available. I am grateful that we have so much information and even more grateful to the fantastic membership who are ever willing to help people out in every aspect of the sport.

The more you know about straight razors and honing and restoration and shaving, the more you want to know.......tis a good ting!!



Lynn

Well this is a fine mess you've gotten us into........

Thanks for leading the charge, Big Guy!

Originally Posted by Cornelius

So which color coticule are you talking about? Blue or yellow? Which stomes do I need before using a coticule?

Blues and Yellows are both Belgian Naturals but only the yellow is called a coticule. The blues are called belgian blue (I know...how creative) or BBW.

A traditional range of stones would be 1 or 2 K to set a bevel, 4K and 8K and then coticule (if that is going to be your finisher). This is complicated by the fact that, as Bart pointed out, the coticule has a pretty wide range of cutting ability. It could substitute for an 8K with a really heavy slurry or be quite a bit less aggressive used dry or with plain water. I think Lynn puts the coticule at a level equivalent to about a 12K with a light slurry. If you start fooling around with the different, more esoteric finishing stones like eschers, higher grit shaptons, japanese naturals etc. the discussion becomes way more complicated and the cost of admission goes through the roof.

Originally Posted by Bill S

Blues and Yellows are both Belgian Naturals but only the yellow is called a coticule.

Ok, so when Bart says coticule he means the yellow Belgian stone.

Originally Posted by Bill S

A traditional range of stones would be 1 or 2 K to set a bevel, 4K and 8K and then coticule (if that is going to be your finisher). This is complicated by the fact that, as Bart pointed out, the coticule has a pretty wide range of cutting ability. It could substitute for an 8K with a really heavy slurry or be quite a bit less aggressive used dry or with plain water. I think Lynn puts the coticule at a level equivalent to about a 12K with a light slurry. If you start fooling around with the different, more esoteric finishing stones like eschers, higher grit shaptons, japanese naturals etc. the discussion becomes way more complicated and the cost of admission goes through the roof.

Ok! Thqnks! I think I got it now: DMT 1,200 like David in the video, then Norton 4/8, then coticule, first with slurry, then with water (then dry?). Thanks!!!

And in early January I'll get a linen / leather strop from Tony and "strop" the razor by sliding it over the leather in the opposite direction