Thread: HHT failures

Bart,

I love your article, really I do. My problem, and it seems that others can't seem to understand what I mean, is that so far, despite all the testing that people on the forums have done, there is no standard "test" that can be performed by everyone and come up with the same results. I keep reading "you just have to figure out your own way to make it happen", "your hair is too thick", "your hair is too thin", etc.

IMO, that is not an adequate "test." It is just a bunch of people finding several different ways to get the same result. That proves NOTHING other than these people can get the same thing to happen with different methods. I could cut a hair in half many different ways; I could burn your house to the ground in several different ways; I could give you the same haircut using several different ways, but it proves nothing.

The quote below (and several other posts that I am not gonna waste my time looking up) tells me that the HHT, as it stands, CANNOT without a doubt, prove that one razor is "sharper" than another.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Quite a bit, in fact I can pop my hair at 1k with ease... It means absolutely nothing to HHT with my hair...

This is why so many people call it a parlor trick, it has to be developed to mean anything, and it only works for that person and that hair..

Unless you STANDARDIZE the test so that ANYONE, ANYWHERE, with ANY hair, can get the same result with the SAME edge, there there is no way you can really say that a razor is sharper for having passed the HHT. I can't seem to get anyone to understand this. But if you want to say "my razor is sharper than yours cause mine passes the HHT" then fine. Go ahead. But you are only blindsiding people, and deceiving them.

I can cut a dog in half with my chef knife, can you?

My kitchen knife is sharper than yours! SO THERE!

You can't get a razor as sharp as I can, so sod off!

It's not a standard, so it means nothing more than someone can cut a hair, which any halfway sharp razor can do.

Originally Posted by avatar1999

Bart,

I love your article, really I do. My problem, and it seems that others can't seem to understand what I mean, is that so far, despite all the testing that people on the forums have done, there is no standard "test" that can be performed by everyone and come up with the same results. I keep reading "you just have to figure out your own way to make it happen", "your hair is too thick", "your hair is too thin", etc.

IMO, that is not an adequate "test." It is just a bunch of people finding several different ways to get the same result. That proves NOTHING other than these people can get the same thing to happen with different methods. I could cut a hair in half many different ways; I could burn your house to the ground in several different ways; I could give you the same haircut using several different ways, but it proves nothing.

The quote below (and several other posts that I am not gonna waste my time looking up) tells me that the HHT, as it stands, CANNOT without a doubt, prove that one razor is "sharper" than another.




Unless you STANDARDIZE the test so that ANYONE, ANYWHERE, with ANY hair, can get the same result with the SAME edge, there there is no way you can really say that a razor is sharper for having passed the HHT. I can't seem to get anyone to understand this. But if you want to say "my razor is sharper than yours cause mine passes the HHT" then fine. Go ahead. But you are only blindsiding people, and deceiving them.

I can cut a dog in half with my chef knife, can you?

My kitchen knife is sharper than yours! SO THERE!

You can't get a razor as sharp as I can, so sod off!

It's not a standard, so it means nothing more than someone can cut a hair, which any halfway sharp razor can do.

Your absolutly correct in stating that no one person can give you an ultimate test that guarantees the blade is the same sharpness from any number of people.
These tests that are used by everyone are only relative to their type of honing. Some use different stones, some finish differently, some use crox, some use diamond spray or paste, some use naturals, some use synthetics, you get the idea.
If you were to take a razor and have it honed by two of the pro's here, you might find the results different when you shave with it. Both will do the same tests and yet both might come up with a different, but subtle, edge.
There is no standard guaranteed test that anyone can use because of this, if there were everyone would use it without fail. That's why you need to find your own definition of HHT or whatever and go with it. If it works for you, and you can get duplicate results, then you are good to go.
I know this might not answer your question but I do hope it leads you in the right direction.

Enjoy!

Ray

Originally Posted by avatar1999

Bart,

I love your article, really I do. My problem, and it seems that others can't seem to understand what I mean, is that so far, despite all the testing that people on the forums have done, there is no standard "test" that can be performed by everyone and come up with the same results. I keep reading "you just have to figure out your own way to make it happen", "your hair is too thick", "your hair is too thin", etc.

You are correct Rob.

It is not a standard test. It's just one of the things you possibly could use to guide you through honing a razor.
As I stated earlier, the same statements are true for the TPT. Any razor can slice through your skin. In order to get something useful out of the TPT, you have to make it your own. That makes it highly subjective and no other conclusions can be derived from it for absolute statements about the sharpness of razors. But you would still be able to compare the sharpness of different razors in your possession, by preforming the TPT on all of them, albeit the results are only meaningful for you and you would not be able to conclusively state something about the absolute sharpness of either one.
The same things applies to the HHT. It is a honing aid.
And my article claims nothing different.

Originally Posted by avatar1999

IMO, that is not an adequate "test." It is just a bunch of people finding several different ways to get the same result. That proves NOTHING other than these people can get the same thing to happen with different methods. I could cut a hair in half many different ways; I could burn your house to the ground in several different ways; I could give you the same haircut using several different ways, but it proves nothing.

This is incorrect. If you can cleanly cut a hair at some distance from the holding point, it are least prooves that the razor is capable of doing just that. How that correlates to the way you will experience a shave while using that razor, is for you to find out, but it is certainly not a completely meaningless exercise. I did not started aiming for a HHT coming of my Coticule, because I find it cool to do so. There is a very clear difference in performance when I strop and test shave before that point. That is very meaningful for me.

Originally Posted by avatar1999

I can cut a dog in half with my chef knife, can you?

I haven't tried yet.

Originally Posted by avatar1999

My kitchen knife is sharper than yours! SO THERE!

You can't get a razor as sharp as I can, so sod off!

It's not a standard, so it means nothing more than someone can cut a hair, which any halfway sharp razor can do.

The part I put in Blue is incorrect, in my opinion. There are only very limited conditions where a subpar razor will pass a HHT along its entire edge, and those conditions can be easily ruled out. All other razors that pass HHT level 4 or 5, as I have defined in my article, can be expected to shave very well. It is not me that turns that statement upside down. "All razors that don't pass the HHT are lousy shavers", is not what it says.

All knives that cut a dog in half, can also sever an onion.
Does that also mean that knives that can't cut a dog in half, can't sever an onion?

The HHT is not some test to prove some masculine ability to make a knife sharper than the next guy. I have not yet read statements on SRP by those that have adopted the HHT as a viable method, that aim to belittle those who have not. So, I don't think we have a problem there.
If you don't like the HHT, or don't see any benefit, then just don't use it. Some of the most experienced honers over here don't use it. Others do.
I don't see that as a big deal.

Best regards,
Bart.

OK so let me get this straight???

What we are saying is that "Honing is more Art than Science"?????

OMG I wish I would have thought of that

Originally Posted by Lynn

I am still using the AHT and it seems to be working pretty well for me anyway..



Lynn




AHT=attached (to face) hair test

Haha! Yep, thats my favourite too...!

If it shaves good, it is good..!

I have the ultimate test and for a nominal fee, you can also know this test!!!


Tailgate Tested, Tailgate Approved!

Originally Posted by Bart

To further clarify why I decided to turn my ideas for the HHT into a wiki article:
The problem with the TPT, in my case, is that I can feel the difference in stickiness when the edge isn't equally sharp along the entire edge, but it gives me no precise idea about the absolute keenness of an edge. If find it one of the strengths of a well calibrated HHT that it provides just that. And using it in my honing, I haven't had the need to go back to the hone, after a test shave, ever since I decided to simply not test shave before I'm happy with both the HHT before and after the first stropping.

On a tangent, I find it an advantage that I can send out honed razors and tell the (often inexperienced) owner, that he may expect the blade to pass the HHT. And that if it doesn't, something is wrong with the razor as I honed it. It may come as a surprise to those who believe that "there are vast differences in the way a hair behaves", that I have not once received feedback that the HHT was a no go. And believe me, they all try, and I don't expect them to wash their head before yanking one out.

I am not saying that a razor that doesn't pass the HHT is not shaveready. Some people claim that they shave just as nice, or even nicer. I'm not going to argue with that, because I simply do not know, for I have a complete lack of experience with non-hht-ing razors. It's just that I find it reassuring for a newbie, when he knows that his razor can sever a hanging hair. Then it surely must be able to cut a standing hair at skin level.

But at the end of the story, no one should feel intimidated about his self honed razor passing a HHT or not. If one gets nice shaves, who cares? I don't. And I'm surely not in the habit of HHT-ing my razors once I'm finished with honing them. I just use them till the way they shave tells me it's time to hone again.

Bart.

See now right up until these statements Bart I was with ya brother, but here with these paragraphs you lose me and most others...
Here you took it back to the problem that Rob was talking about.....
You tossed a HHT gauntlet back down, that is the problem that Rob does have a legitimate gripe about... When somebody like you does that, then too many people think that if their razor doesn't pass their HHT then their razor is not shave ready for them, and that just is not true...

Originally Posted by Bart

that performing the HHT is a trade one needs to learn on an individual basis, just like performing the TPT.

That sums it up *perfectly*. I think the wiki does a great job of discussing its use and limitations. At that point, its up to the individual to develop and use the test in a way that's meaningful to them.

I'm now to the point that I can predict how a blade is gonna shave pretty darn accurately based on *my* hht test.

Same hear i find if my razor passes hht to the standard i no i get a great shave it realy works for me. Razors that don't still shave in most cases but not as good as i no they can. I found all my razors from good honmeisters all pas the hht and have all shaved perfect. Especialy the one i recieved from bart.

I've only gotten one razor from honemeisters that passed the HHT, and it wasn't by best shaving razor

Color me ambivalent