Thread: Musing from a newbie

Musing from a newbie
I am pretty new to SRP but I wanted to make a few comments, and ask for some advice. One thing that I have to say is that the razor must be sharp, I have owned a Dovo since about 2000 maybe earlier and I tried shaving with it and it was absolutely terrible and uncomfortable shave I ever had, as I mentioned before It took me a decade for taylors1000 to point out to me: was it sharp? That might seem really crazy, but I was a busy medical student, I just wanted to take a shave each morning/evening. So I spent 10 years more on Gillette and loads of cash and carbon foot print, and uncomfortable shaves.

So my father sharpened the Dovo, and told me to buy a Belgian water stone.
Why did I not ask him about the ST8 before? Well I don’t know really I was away from home, maybe had more to talk about than shaving when I was home in the holidays.

He has a hybrid Wilkinson razor he has used all of his life, its basically a ST8 with a handle and several spare blades, it has a holder and you strop it like normal, hone it like normal then pop it into a holder, he does not use a ST8 as he has a shaky hand, and retired due to this illness. But he did in the RAF when he said the air commander (I don’t know the correct title) would take of his glove and run his hand against the grain up your cheek, and feeling of ANY hair and I understand, and you were in trouble.

What I do know is that I now have the most comfortable shaves I ever got, I think I told people before, I found a book, I think it’s in the WIKI here and I just followed the advice, plus a good read of all of the advice here and a second barbers book (I can post it, I don’t think its here) that I took the prep advice from (see below for MY prep)…

I must admit that I had a few rough shaves at first, I just had a Bic to hand, but I decided to go cold turkey very quickly following some advice some place here, I now finish off any rough spots with just hot water and close attention with my ST8, within maybe one month I am more pleased than I could ever be, I have very heavy, dense and dark beard. I also still cannot believe how comfortable the shave is, and the prep is REALLY important. I might have said in my first post that I lather in the soap, brushing well fingers controlling the bristles to rub firmly, rub with warmed up fingers, leave it while I strop, hot face cloth on my face for maybe one min (approx) wipe all the soap off with said face cloth (dirt and grease suspended in lather) then re lather really working the soap into the bearded, I spend a good deal of time working in the lather, holding the hair on the brush at first to make it stiffer so that you can really work it in, i.e. butt of the brush in the palm of your hand and fingers around over the bristles to keep them in control (as an aside: I worked in a hospital in Dubai fro maybe five months secondment, the barbers were fantastic on every street corner, one thing that struck me then was the amount of time they spent lathering, wiping and re lathering, I admit I understand this now, I also remember how the barber repeatedly went back to the chin to build the lather in the brush the face again). I shave with the grain once, then at a slight across the grain, third time for me is just very hot water splash over face, and feel for any little rough bits and I go in with the razor just shaving it very gently to smooth. I wipe face again, moisturiser and hot face cloth to melt the moisturiser into pores, which hazel and pat dry, some time with a ice splash last. I only use after shave on behind the ears little on the neck.

I cant tell you the trouble I have had shaving all my life and this is wonderful I tired a Double blade razor and I nearly killed myself with it 5 days on the trot, I needed iron tablets to cope with the blood loss (joke) I have only got a few little superficial nicks while learning.

I really feel genuine sadness when I read of people giving up or razors on Ebay that say “it was not for me” I see myself ten years back and want to scream “no, you don’t understand, its not like modern things that you can just do! Its like riding a bike! You need to practice but once you get it your fine!”. We must educate the world gentlemen. I have been banging the drum a little around work, if not a muted drum.

Thanks everybody!

Questions::::::
Finally one thing I mentioned to my father was the pyramid honing technique, and tape at the back of the razor. Now he lectured engineering and was building nuclear power stations designing the precision parts, he said pyramid honing makes no sense to him? (Please don’t ban me) as why would you not just hone like barbers for the last 200 years did? With no apparent problems? and he recommended me to just go Belgian, and also when I mentioned taping the back he said why would you want to do that? The razor is meant to be used, “hone to death” and he said you would see little wear in your life time, if only honing when required, he also said that tape is bad because you alter the angles why would you want to do that? It would blunt quicker, and it’s designed to be functional tape = just more time, and a waste of it, so what is the deal with tape? I must admit I can’t see the point I sometimes honed the microtome blades in the pathology labs and these blade date back to the 50s they run day and night cutting samples plastic, they are cut throats basically and hone up fine, there is no noticeable wear or degradation to the blades the wear is maybe 5mm, to be dead and buried the lab technician told me its 10mm++when the angle is too steep.

Is tape recommended MORE for restoration work like chips? I just don’t get it. I dared to say to him “its not an exact science” he looked with a decerning look and said “of course it is” hay ho.


And why pyramid hone? Really why? (PLEASE NOTE I HAVE A DAY OFF AND JUST HONED A NEW DOVO INOX I PICKED UP I USED THE PYRAMID HONE TEC AND WELL IT IS REALLY SHARP! SO I DONT UNDERSTAND IT FULLY BUT IT DID WORK VERY WELL:EDIT BY HOOPEI 3.49GMT) Why not just time honoured lower grit to finer to ultra fine? Much less, wear and tear? I have done one touch up using a old flat barber hone, 10 light strokes with some lather and the blade was….well razor sharp………my father did also say the words that I understand are forbidden here……. “you don’t want it too sharp!” he told me that you want the edge razor super sharp sharper than a double edge, but only to the point fractionally before you get burr, he said this point is hard to discern, but the edge is too sharp, too thin, what ever you want to call it, it collapses, has flex and folds too easily. I mentioned that I have read you “cannot” have too sharp and he said, you can, and an engineer would tell you that? I am not an engineer and my dads getting on a bit these days, but he insists too sharp is out there, too sharp blunts too quickly and does not hold the edge for long. What are your thoughts? Admittedly I know that when I was talking to a surgeon about a particular blade they use, I remember that he also said “we don’t use them they are too sharp for the job! sorry i must add he did say its hard to get to too sharp as you normally just over hone first.................

Gentlemen I must go but I love the web site.

I cannot answer your questions but thankyou for asking very interesting post

ian

Thank you for an interesting post. I can't answer your questions; and, speaking of questions, but I think your father raised a couple of valid ones.

I think if you read through the forum, you will find a lot of great information on all types of honing from what you are calling traditional to many other techniques and media around today that give great results. Like any other art, there is a significant amount of personal preference involved here.

There are a lot of people out there who will poo poo methods they have not tried or say they do not understand. The Pyramid method has been a very successful and reliable way to hone razors and thousands have been successful in learning to hone because of it. Real experience comes from being able to do and then compare. Even though preference will play a part here the lessons and differences are invaluable.

Don't worry, you're not banned........Your Dad though...........

Have fun,

Lynn

Yes I must admit I have not tried it, the proof is in the pudding I guess.

I must admit that from what I read it seems to do the job.

I also have a day off and did a little more reading today I must admit I might have jumped the gun with my post. I see what you’re saying about the gradual reduction in ratio of rough then smooth strokes, I can see how this would gradually reduce the blade edge to being very highly polished over the process start to finish, I must admit again I did not understand the method properly.

[FONT=Times New Roman]I will try this and see what happens…..[/F

I hope that you just enjoy being here and have some fun.

The best way to hone a razor is with a method and hone that work best for you. There really are no rights or wrongs when you end up with a razor that shaves well. All the other techniques and stones that you try are just materials for your database, if you want them.

Have fun,

Lynn

Originally Posted by Hoopei

Yes I must admit I have not tried it, the proof is in the pudding I guess.

I must admit that from what I read it seems to do the job.

I also have a day off and did a little more reading today I must admit I might have jumped the gun with my post. I see what you’re saying about the gradual reduction in ratio of rough then smooth strokes, I can see how this would gradually reduce the blade edge to being very highly polished over the process start to finish, I must admit again I did not understand the method properly.

[FONT=Times New Roman]I will try this and see what happens…..[/F

Well I picked up a stainless Dovo Inox today quarter hollow, I want it foe holiday and travelling. I have holiday and that’s why I have posted.

As I have the house to myself…………

I tried the simple pyramid method and I have to say it was popping hairs. Still don’t understand it but it seems to work very well so! Hay who knows maybe my musing above was correct.

Originally Posted by Hoopei

So I spent 10 years more on Gillette and loads of cash and carbon foot print, and uncomfortable shaves.

First of all, I had plenty of shaves (and years) off the Gillette and other's plastic disposables, so I'm not partial to any shaving system. You have to wait for sales, which of course means constant perusing and evaluations.

I cannot relate to the idea/concept of overhoning. I've never experienced it, so take this as it is. It must be a sign of a very tough (good) steel.

I've had some experience with straight razors, yes, major chip removal (edge removal) is a project, and in order to preserve the angles and physical properties of edge retention it may be necessary to tape the spine.

Obviously for more "dirty" projects having lower grit hones is highly beneficial for speed. I can't tell you how many times I've yearned for tolerance for taking a razor down to, what is to me, an appropriate grit level.

Just a touch-up, when that is all that's needed, is a perfectly good gripe. As long as the edge, the steel's edge, is properly maintained that's appropriate. But many, many razors on this forum are not so well treated. A pyramid is good for helping people feel it through, or ensure they come through with the honing progression. But in the modern age of microscopes and all that entails... who knows?

I have a Taylor 11/16ths Eye Witness that is so wonderful, so easily smooth, I know it's a great razor. Designed to be smiley, very English, very sophisticated, it doesn't have to explain itself and it's performance on my face is beyond any Europhiliasms.

I use a particular shaving soap (cheap off eBay) to cleanse my face of the oils, personal or otherwise, before the shave, for pre-pre-shave purposes. It's very important, and I acknowledge that.

BTW, (by the way), if you're father's an engineer he will probably understand the principles of the physics behind total, included angle of edges and the wear and tear on them. This goes to the pyramid and other things... he may have dwelt in complexity but it doesn't compensate for the simplicity, the simple fact is that the pyramid system only ensures that people do it right. It all depends on the extremely subtle nature of the human-forged steel in question, and with so many different properties it is quite sage advice to take... the pyramid system, as a honing method, is simply to make sure the most people are satisfied and well-served, it is not the be all end all of all sharpening methods. Microscopes can change things for individuals. It's a reaching out.

There are some people here, who've done HRC (rockwell hardness) tests on the blade's edge and the spine (obviously the farthest from the edge) on these archaic blades. What was the result? Well, it turns out, due to the economic influences, despite the ever-present aspiration for quality, that the tempering of these mighty, beautiful, comforting, smooth steels can produce a blade that is different in hardness from edge to spine. The spine is softer, the edge the hardest. Okay? Taping the spine is not required, but often, especially when bringing the dead back to life, quite appropriate. That is how our community is marked. We are traumatized victims of eBetray.

Personally, I've self-honed at least a handful (at least 5) of blades "naked" and have easy access to hone refreshment on all of them, guaranteed. So everything I do after this is besides the point... I will use tape, from 1-3 layers, to rest how it works, and make the best use of each for whatever personal purposes exists. If a razor has been brought to the point where it's included (total) angle is fragile, then it is necessary to use tape to increase that included angle to the point where that edge is given the integrity it deserves.

As someone new to this take what I have to say with a grain (or two) of salt. But I could not agree with you more everything you said mages sense to me. I have never homed my own blades so I cannot speak to your argument against the pyramid technique but I can say your arguement seems logical to me. When I do start honing myself I will have to try both ways and see what works for me. That said a razor being "too sharp" makes perfect sense. I come from a background in knives, where the harder the knife material is the smaller angle it can be ground to. This is because a harder material can withstand force better without dulling which is the blade folding over on a very small scale. So as a Japanese knife can be sharpened to a finer edge then a German one because they use higher strength steel it makes sense that there is a limit to how sharp a razor can be before it gets too thin and folds over too easily.
Thanks for the post!

The great thing about this forum is you can find all kinds of help for many different approaches to honing. A lot of it just comes down to personal preference. For example, if natural hones appeal to you vs. synthetic, then you'll gravitate to a different honing approach vs. synthetic hones. I learned to hone about 1.5 years ago, and settled on belgian hone with slurry method. Right now I have a single natural combo BBW/Coticule hone that is working really well for me, and I was able to do this based solely on help from this forum. I even had someone ship me a Double Arrow razor to practice honing on for free!

I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate why pyramid honing works well with synthetic hones and why that method isn't really used on a belgian... I think I read this from a post a long time ago--

With a synthetic stone, you can overhone the razor resulting in a wire edge, so by using the pyramid method and moving back occaionally to the higher grit, you approach the "maximum" keenness without going overboard by staying on a particular grit for too long. On a natural hone like a BBW/Coticule, you can hone all day long without developing a wire edge so no need to move back and forth between BBW and coticule.

What do you guys think?

Chief