Thread: May Have Over Honed?

I read the link you sent, thank you. If it takes that much effort to over hone I doubt that is the issue here. My inexperience is starting to become very frustrating.
To answer your questions the razor says White Swan on one side and the other says Ben. Wielputz, Los Angeles, Made In Germany. The hones I used are the Norton combination 4k/8k. My first attempt I did around 40 laps 4k and then around 40 laps 8k. My sencond attempt I did the wiki pyramid system, the aggresive one. I had a decent shave after this but felt it could be sharper. Third attempt I did the wiki pyramid system conservative method and when finished I did 100 laps on a arkansas translucent hone with oil. Each time I stropped with the canvas and leather strop. Brand new Vintage Blade 3" Latigo strop.

First thing you need to do is look closely at the edge under bright light and a 20x-40x magnification, this is the easiest way ...

You are looking to see what is actually going on at the very edge...

Actual over-honing like what you are describing will look like pieces missing from the edge. it will have a picket fence look, knocked out tooth look, to the very fine straight edge...
At the same time you have to make sure that the edge does not have Swiss cheese style corrosion if there is corrosion at the edge, you have to get past that first or you will keep having the same problem...

These two things present the same symptoms as what you are getting..

Let us know what you see, and we'll go from there... is there anyway possible to get a pic of the razor here?????

Trust me, we will either walk you through getting that baby sharp and shaving, or I will hone it for you on my Norton 4/8 so you can get an idea of just what is possible with that stone...

I didn't explain jointing above in detail because only a minority of us use the technique, and I didn't want to start some side controversy and derail your thread. But, you are frustrated, and your best attempts with pyramids and so on are not solving your problem. Even though the other approaches are sound, possibly jointing also offers you something that might help as well. So, let me explain the theory behind jointing a little more.

You said...

Originally Posted by RazorX

... I saw the jointing technique which sound a little drastic for the size of the chips...

This makes completely wrong assumptions about jointing, and the use of jointing. Jointing is gentle and mild, and very far from drastic!

Breadknifing removes a lot of metal, and is a blunt force approach. Jointing is a gentle lamb, barely removing any metal. Jointing removes metal, but after about 6 or 8 passes of regular honing your edge is as sharp as before. If 6 or 8 passes reestablishes your edge as sharp as before jointing, obviously the approach is quite minimal!

If you held the blade straight up and down while jointing, the weight of the blade on the edge, even though not great, does remove metal from the edge to a moderate degree. But, when you lay the blade almost flat, at about 20 degrees elevation, the physics greatly reduce the weight of the blade in the vertical direction. I would estimate that the downward pressure of the blade against the hone to be about 1/4 of the weight of the blade.

Now, think about an edge that is jagged, with microscopic dips and valleys. When you drag the blade along the edge as described above, you nip off the mico height hills and when done the distance between hills and valleys is less. You have a straighter edge. You have an edge that will hone faster the rest of the hones. I believe jointing oftentimes saves honing time instead of costing you time.

After jointing, I feel the edge with the TPT. It needs to feel very smooth. If not, I joint again. I rarely takes more than one jointing, and even more rarely two jointings.

Then, I hone about 6-8 passes and retest using the TPT. If it doesn't still feel smooth, I rejoint. By alternating jointing with honing, I am reworking the bevel and the edge, making the edge absolutely straight, and removing all instability in the edge.

At times, just honing seems to fix a problem that returns in the form of burrs and irregularities as you continue up the hones. When I started honing, this reappearance of the burrs and scratchiness and irregularity of the edge was very annoying. When I started jointing, I found a way to quickly reestablish a straight robust edge.

For the sake of argument, let's assume jointing is a bogus technique. If so, the mildness of proper jointing is such that at the least, you are slowing yourself down only the 6 to 8 additional passes on the hone required to reestablish the sharpness before jointing. If it takes more than that, in most circumstances, I believe you are jointing incorrectly.

At worst, jointing might cost you a minute or two. At best, it is exactly what you need to quickly correct your problem and avoid the problems you are experiencing with your final hones.

Thanks guys, Larry thanks for clearing that up about jionting. Please bare with me this is all new to me. I apologize if I jump to any conclusions.
I posted some pictures of the problemed area. I see three chips within an inch of the end of the blade. From what I can tell the rest of the blade looks ok. Glen, I don't have a 20x-40x mag but I'll work on getting one.

Jointing, as I described above, is not your answer to chips that big. Jointing addresses irregularities in the blade edge too small to see. Microscopic chips and dings if you will.

With the chips you have, I would first worry about your strop or whatever caused the chips. But, moving on to how to fix that problem...

I would breadknife the blade on a plain old whetstone like you buy at a hardware store. Then, would work thru the DMTs - 220, 325, 600 and on to the Naniwas. I am sure there are other approaches equally workable.

I disagree.
I don't think you should breadknife the blade. The only time breadknifing MIGHT be called for is when a chip extends far beyond the bevel but I don't even do it then. If you breadknife that blade you are just creating more work for yourself.

Hone the razor with your lowest grit and hold the razor so that the spine is well above the hone, holding the blade at 10 to 30 degrees above the hone. Tape the spine if you have trouble keeping the spine off the hone. Do circles until the chips are no longer visible and are not detected by the thumb nail test and then go back to normal honing to set the bevel.

I doubt you have a series of DMTs or Naniwas. You mentioned using a Norton 4k and 8k, do you have anything lower?

Originally Posted by RazorX

lso I just assumed it wasn't honed right. I know now that probably wasn't the case.

Assumption is the mother of all ****-ups

I have 220/1000 norton wet stones as well as the 4k/8k. Would you start with the 220 or the 1000?

Not meaning to complicate things but anybody else think that stabiliser is close to becoming a problem ?

Those chips are large , but I don't they're deep enough to compromise the stabilizer . Judging by the damage , the toe of the razor must have been dragged down the edge of the hone at the end of a
stroke . Honing out those chips will not be quick or easy .