honing info for a newbie...

okay. so what happens if i get to the bottom of the honing period and the razor still just isn't cutting as close as i'd like it to? i got a shave ready razor from glen and it cuts much better. i'm reasonably sure i'm using the correct technique, though i'm a little unclear about how much pressure i should be applying to the razor during the honing process. currently, i'm only using enough to keep the razor flat on the stone. should i be using more?

since i just read through ten pages of that x pattern thread i'll just tell you now that i'm not using the x pattern. i push and pull straight across with the heel leading.

so i guess what i'm saying is, do i repeat the pyramid, or just continue with the 1/5's until it's ready? or is there another option?

...and another very specific question: on a 1/5, it's my understanding that the one pass on the 4k side is added to prevent over-honing by removing any wire edge that may have formed. does removing that wire edge also have a negative effect on the sharpening (ie is it like taking one step back, then five steps forward?)? hope my question is clear...

It depends...

Don't you just hate hearing that? How close is it? If close to your goal, do a couple of more 1/5's or 1/3's, testing between each one.

If it's still no where near shavable, start the pyramid over again.

If it's shaving well, but a bit rough, take it to your finishing stone or pasted strops to smooth things out a bit.

The relative sharpness of the blade will determine how far back in the process you need to go, just like the relative shape of a new e-bay special will determine where you need to start. For example, if I've got a nicked, dull, edge pitted restoration project, I'll typically tape the spine and take a few lapps on my 220 Norton (many would never take a razor to this stone no matter how rough it is, YMMV). If however, the edge is in pretty good shape, but oxidized just a bit, I'll take it to the Norton 1K to expose new steel and shape the bevel. If there is no oxidation and the bevel geometry looks good, I start with a pyramid on the 4/8K. If it is a shavable razor, I'll typically start with an 8K/coticule pyramid.

The trick is to never use more abrasive techniques than is necessary. How far you backtrack depend on how far you need to go.

Just another data point,
Ed

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Originally Posted by cyrano138

okay. so what happens if i get to the bottom of the honing period and the razor still just isn't cutting as close as i'd like it to? i got a shave ready razor from glen and it cuts much better. i'm reasonably sure i'm using the correct technique, though i'm a little unclear about how much pressure i should be applying to the razor during the honing process. currently, i'm only using enough to keep the razor flat on the stone. should i be using more?

since i just read through ten pages of that x pattern thread i'll just tell you now that i'm not using the x pattern. i push and pull straight across with the heel leading.

so i guess what i'm saying is, do i repeat the pyramid, or just continue with the 1/5's until it's ready? or is there another option?

...and another very specific question: on a 1/5, it's my understanding that the one pass on the 4k side is added to prevent over-honing by removing any wire edge that may have formed. does removing that wire edge also have a negative effect on the sharpening (ie is it like taking one step back, then five steps forward?)? hope my question is clear...

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Nobody tells you this, but the pyramid must not be used blindly. You need to evaluate the razor before starting and monitor it during the pyramid. It's very possible you honed too much on a razor that needed a little refreshing. For example, you could have gone past a wire edge and part way to keen.

I think you need to take stock and guess at how far you are from keen, and do a part of the pyramid accordingly. Alternatively, you could test the razor after every set in the pyramid to see if it's improving and stop when you're satisfied. You don't need to finish the pyramid. It may be a lot of testing before you have a better feel for how to use a pyramid.

Here's what I would do. Does the razor come close to passing a sharpness test? If so, proceed carefully. If not do a thumbnail test (classicshaving.com, "how to ... and why", the honing section). This will tell you whether the razor is dull, requires more sharpening, has a wire edge, or has chips. Continue accordingly.

the razor started as an out of box new dovo, so i haven't over-honed yet (i've been testing it quite often by shaving). it is getting incrementally better, but very slowly, and i think i've hit a plateau of sorts.

it shaves alright, just a bit rough compared to my shave-ready from glen, and i only have a norton 4k/8k (i'm reasonably sure i'm not ever going to buy pasted strops), so i'm pretty much stuck with the good ol' pyramid.

is it ever called for to modify the pyramid? for instance, to do a 1/10 or a series of something akin to them?

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Originally Posted by cyrano138

the razor started as an out of box new dovo, so i haven't over-honed yet (i've been testing it quite often by shaving). it is getting incrementally better, but very slowly, and i think i've hit a plateau of sorts.

it shaves alright, just a bit rough compared to my shave-ready from glen, and i only have a norton 4k/8k (i'm reasonably sure i'm not ever going to buy pasted strops), so i'm pretty much stuck with the good ol' pyramid.

is it ever called for to modify the pyramid? for instance, to do a 1/10 or a series of something akin to them?

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THe pyramid is there to help if you're not sure what you're doing. It sounds like you're on the right track. If the pyramid is having no effect, maybe you just need to work with the 8K until you max out the improvement. You may not be able to match the shave ready razor if it was done with a coticule or pasted strop.

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Originally Posted by cyrano138

i'm reasonably sure i'm not ever going to buy pasted strops

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This is probably a mistake. As Joe mentioned, your "shave ready" razor was almost certainly finished on something much finer than the norton, either a coticule or a 0.5 or 0.25 micron paddle, which is *much* finer than the 8k norton.

While there seems to be some agreement that the 4k/8k norton is sufficient, this is contingent on the honing chops of the user.

If you really don't want to use a paddle (and I'm not sure why, since they're so simple and effective), you will probably want to invest in a fine-grit finishing hone of some sort (search the forums for coticule, escher, lithide for more info).

what about a swaty? i've got one of those on the way.

That should work. Swaty's are small; you'll have to use the X pattern on it.

Joe Lerch on this board is convinced that if you do a couple of laps on a swaty every time you shave then you will never have to use a norton on it unless you somehow damage the edge. You might want to try this approach.

eh.

i don't see any reason not to try and learn to use the norton, even if i don't need to use it regularly. has anyone on this board ever gotten a really close shave with a norton-only honed razor?

The lithide you can get at Tilly's. You can also get "new" coticules. They are newly qaurried. They also have mixed reviews compared with the older ones. Swaty's probably from Ebay although I found mine at an antique store online. But I also paid too much for it.
Hope this helps a little

Absolutely!:)

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Originally Posted by cyrano138

eh.

i don't see any reason not to try and learn to use the norton, even if i don't need to use it regularly. has anyone on this board ever gotten a really close shave with a norton-only honed razor?

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i can't tell you how happy it makes me to hear it. the thought of cluttering up my life and bathroom with a whole lot of stuff makes me shiver.

:)

My opinion is that you cannot use straight push pattern on new razor effectively. Neither on the one with straight or curved edge. Either you reestablish the bevel on the coarse hone (sandpaper) the way you will hone the razor in the future, or you learn to hone X pattern. If you read carefully the "science of pyramides" thread again, you will understand why.

Nenad

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Originally Posted by cyrano138

eh.

i don't see any reason not to try and learn to use the norton, even if i don't need to use it regularly. has anyone on this board ever gotten a really close shave with a norton-only honed razor?

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Absolutely. I use a very light touch on the Norton towards the end of the honing process and I get a very nice shave. The LIGHT touch is the key.

-R

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Originally Posted by mparker762

That should work. Swaty's are small; you'll have to use the X pattern on it.

Joe Lerch on this board is convinced that if you do a couple of laps on a swaty every time you shave then you will never have to use a norton on it unless you somehow damage the edge. You might want to try this approach.

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Is that how you understand what I said?

The idea is to do it when it's needed, when the edge feels a little unsharp after honing. It could be once a week, but you would need to have steel wool beard to have to do it every day.

And I never said you'd never have to hone, just that you could do it indefinitely without having to hone. There are a lot of variables, but you shouldn't have to hone for a long time. I have a few razors that I haven't honed in over a year.

Maybe we're all doing the same thing, I remove a little at a time every few days, always keeping the razor keen, and others let it deteriorate more and hone once a month. It just seeks a lot easier to do a few swipes every couple of days than to sit down to a full honing session.

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Originally Posted by superfly

My opinion is that you cannot use straight push pattern on new razor effectively. Neither on the one with straight or curved edge. Either you reestablish the bevel on the coarse hone (sandpaper) the way you will hone the razor in the future, or you learn to hone X pattern. If you read carefully the "science of pyramides" thread again, you will understand why.

Nenad

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I think you need to explain that.

Now you're talking about the straight push which has been used by Germans since wide stones have been available. Maybe someone should tell them it doesn't work.

The simple truth is that almost anything works and it's not rocket science. I can tell you this from personal experience. The only thing the x-pattern can do that a push can't is create a slanted scratch pattern and produce an extreme smile (why?). In fact if you look at directions that come with barber hones, some even tell you to hone dry and use a light circular stroke. I experiment a lot, and I've tried many ways, and they all work. The best one is the one that works best for you on the particlar job.

If you are new, the push will give you a more even edge than the x-pattern (it has a steeper learning curve). Don't take my word for it, try it for yourself and see. But any suggestion that the push doesn't work is poppycock. Don't let it discourage you from trying.

Feel free to change the pyramid to suit your needs. Changing to a 1/10 makes a lot of sense and so does just using the 8k.
Just remember that the 8K cuts very fast so go slow and shave test .

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

Maybe we're all doing the same thing, I remove a little at a time every few days, always keeping the razor keen, and others let it deteriorate more and hone once a month. It just seeks a lot easier to do a few swipes every couple of days than to sit down to a full honing session.

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Joe, I apologise; I think I have been misunderstanding you. I was under the impression that most people refreshed their blades every few days to a week and then after a while they would have to take it to the norton, and that what you were saying was to refresh the blade much more often (basically every shave or every other shave) and never let the blade degrade at all. I've been hitting the 1 and 1/2 micron pasted strops as soon as I notice the slightest drop in keen (6-7 shaves), as it only takes a few minutes to do. So it sounds like we've got same approach. I guess in a few months I'll find out if paddles work as well as the barber hone for this. Which barber hone are you using for this? I seem to remember it being a swaty, but I'm not certain.

Do you other old hands really only refresh your blades every 25-30 shaves or so? Or is it more like 5-7? Inquiring minds want to know.

Really good thread though huh? OK, so I'm at a little loss myself. I'm a huge proponent of the X pattern, HUGE. I don't see why a straight push wouldn't work, atleast initially too. And its connection to the pyramid? MMMMMMM, total loss. But, you've also got me lost on why you can't angle the scratch pattern with a straight push (say heal leading).

Joe- I assume your referring to a perpendicular straight stroke? I want to, very carefully and respectfully, query your point that "the straight stroke has been used by Germans since wide stones were available". Seems like a slightly broad reference. What is the source for that idea and when did broad stones become available or maybe a better question is; when were they not available? BTW...saying that Germans do things is hardly validation for its intelligence (sorry...I had to take that shot too). I have come across some references that German razor manufacturing companies used a straight perpendicular stroke to hone razors but also thought it was too expensive to "finish" the honing. In the videos I've seen a straight stroke being used as well with fingers all over the blade so I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that they were simply beveling the edge (I think it was in the TI factory). I'm not disputing your point, all those methods you mentioned do work, I'm just not clear on what Germans your referring to (a German Internet site?, all Germans?, a German razor factory?).

Guys...lets keep it light, its only shaving... but a great conversation piece too huh?

Oh, and I think I just got pulled into a thread drift. When the pyramid fails, I do it again. Keep in mind I don't "finish" using a pyramid. It only gets me close to the edge I want, then I use an ultra light touch (using an X pattern) to finish the edge to my satisfaction.

Also, I hone about every 15 shaves. Depends on the razor, but I don't keep track.

After reading this thread I am starting to wonder? I have been using the X and after reading the 1961 Barbers Text. They are saying to use the X to create a smile in the blade. Something to the effect and not the exact words. A flat blade will cause discomfort to the customer causing the blade to drag, the heel and toe shood be above the middle of the blade. This is achieved by proper honing technique then they show diagrams of the X pattern with heel leading slightly. :hmmm:
But the Swaty directions I have show a straight stroke with the heel leading? :thinking:
I have been doing the X with the heel slightly leading.

All of those strokes can acheive a sharp edge and I think all of those strokes can also create a curve in the center. The method of fixing that is in the book too. Most of the discussions here aren't really based on some rules of what will work and what won't but on our ideas of what is best. I think the keys to honing are laying the blade flat, using a light touch, and honing each side equally. After that its all just a crap shoot and most of it is immaterial.

the straight push is working for me. the razor i'm trying to get up to snuff is coming along nicely, getting a little closer each time to the shave-ready i'm using for comparison. thanks for all the advice.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Really good thread though huh? OK, so I'm at a little loss myself. I'm a huge proponent of the X pattern, HUGE. I don't see why a straight push wouldn't work, atleast initially too. And its connection to the pyramid? MMMMMMM, total loss. But, you've also got me lost on why you can't angle the scratch pattern with a straight push (say heal leading).

Joe- I assume your referring to a perpendicular straight stroke? I want to, very carefully and respectfully, query your point that "the straight stroke has been used by Germans since wide stones were available". Seems like a slightly broad reference. What is the source for that idea and when did broad stones become available or maybe a better question is; when were they not available? BTW...saying that Germans do things is hardly validation for its intelligence (sorry...I had to take that shot too). I have come across some references that German razor manufacturing companies used a straight perpendicular stroke to hone razors but also thought it was too expensive to "finish" the honing. In the videos I've seen a straight stroke being used as well with fingers all over the blade so I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that they were simply beveling the edge (I think it was in the TI factory). I'm not disputing your point, all those methods you mentioned do work, I'm just not clear on what Germans your referring to (a German Internet site?, all Germans?, a German razor factory?).

Guys...lets keep it light, its only shaving... but a great conversation piece too huh?

Oh, and I think I just got pulled into a thread drift. When the pyramid fails, I do it again. Keep in mind I don't "finish" using a pyramid. It only gets me close to the edge I want, then I use an ultra light touch (using an X pattern) to finish the edge to my satisfaction.

Also, I hone about every 15 shaves. Depends on the razor, but I don't keep track.

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The only reason I mentoned the Germans is that the straight push is very popular, perhaps predominant on their sites. It was not to vouch for the approach but just to indicate that it works.

I only get upset when we seem to be misleading our readers. If I were discussing this with Nenand, I'd say "Yeah, right!" and some smart remark. But those kinds of statements seem to overlook the fact that we have a lot of people looking to us for advice and a responsibility not to mislead them. When we post, we're posting for a lot of them. Saying that the push doesn't work could discourage someone from trying a very good technique that could be the one that works for them.

Do you do a full hone session every 15 shaves? I'm talking about a refresh (under 5 strokes) every 5 or so shaves. when the razor just starts to pull after stroppng. The time between full hones is indefinite. If you mean just refreshing, then we're doing the same thing. You're just tolerating a little more pull before you act.

Yes, just 5-6 laps on a barber hone usually does it. I think the interval depends on the type of steel some. Back when I used a DE often I preferred a slightly duller edge which is why I probably don't mind waiting a little, as long as its stainless. For carbon razors its been about 10 shaves. I often grow a goatee during the work week for a couple of days to make the morning shave go faster and as you probably know the non-goatee area is a really easy shave, and that extends blade life too. Sometimes I shave at night before work and that seems to help too, why I'm not sure; more soak time maybe.

I used to need to hone more often but I found with better stropping (more pressure) and perfect technique, combined with judicious use of the linen side mixed with the leather side that the edge life lasted quite a bit longer. I never used the linen side until Papabull recommended it to me. I added this pressure only after it started to pull. The strop is a big part of the equation too, I believe.

I do a full honing session once, after purchase. I'll run it one pass on a 4k though if I overhone it, which hasn't happened in a while. After that just updates/refreshing. I suspect an update will include a 4K pass on occasion, but I haven't done that yet.

I have found a few references on the instructions for my barber hones which indicate that a straight push is just fine. I used it last night to update my current razor and it worked very nicely.

Your right . . . its hard for any of us to know what doesn't work . . .

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Originally Posted by Popeye

After reading this thread I am starting to wonder? I have been using the X and after reading the 1961 Barbers Text. They are saying to use the X to create a smile in the blade. Something to the effect and not the exact words. A flat blade will cause discomfort to the customer causing the blade to drag, the heel and toe shood be above the middle of the blade. This is achieved by proper honing technique then they show diagrams of the X pattern with heel leading slightly. :hmmm:
But the Swaty directions I have show a straight stroke with the heel leading? :thinking:
I have been doing the X with the heel slightly leading.

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If you read that text carefully, the edge it talks about that as bad is the frown, not the straight edge. Taken as a whole the text tells you to form a smile as a precaution against a frown. In fact, the smile is described as being only for the experienced barber, and it continues to recommend the straight edge of the previous section for the novice.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

All of those strokes can acheive a sharp edge and I think all of those strokes can also create a curve in the center.

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True, but in order to achieve an extreme smile you need to be able to move the edge in a non-planar fashion, as has been correctly pointed out. But what wasn't pointed out is why you would want an edge that looks like a scimitar.

The barber manual speaks in terms of a slight taper, not necessarily a curve. In fact the method it describes gives you a tapered edge that only loks curved. You can get both of those with virtually any method of honing, but getting a scimitar edge that's even won't work with any of them. It requires a special motion or comples pressure control with the x-pattern and a lot of skill.

The bottom line is that a straight edge is fine, and only a frown is to be avoided. Most razors come with the straight edge and maintaining them that way will produce great shaves. I'm not sure you would notice much of a difference if you switched them over to a smile. On the other hand, some razors, like my Filly and a lot of old English ones were intended to have a smile. From the curve (smile) of the spine, I would say they probably came that way. It's a good idea to keep them the way they were intended to be.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I do a full honing session once, after purchase. I'll run it one pass on a 4k though if I overhone it, which hasn't happened in a while. After that just updates/refreshing. I suspect an update will include a 4K pass on occasion, but I haven't done that yet.

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What you describe is essentially what I do. The time between refreshings will depend aon many factors, including the type of beard you have and, as you point out, the style in which you keep it.

From what I've read, most guys eventually fall into the type of pattern we use. It was very popular in the days when str8s ruled. And many men, and even barbers, sent their razors to a service when real honing was needed.

Since it's a hobby, I look forward to the honing work, and sometimes I need to restrain myself to keep from honing a razor that's fine and doesn't really need it. My experience has been that razors are rarely improved that way, except for a slight refresh.

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Originally Posted by cyrano138

what about a swaty? i've got one of those on the way.

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The hone I finished your shave-ready razor was a Honemaster from Tilly. I have been told that it is a finer grit than the 8K Norton. As for the Swaty's they were very popular, but be aware that there are some variance in the grits of different brands. I have found that one side may be better than the other.

Glen

shows what i know. i thought 'swaty' was the brand.

:confused:

Swaty IS the brand name. It was invented by Franz Swaty, from Maribor, ex Yugoslavia, in the beginning of the last century. There are different Swaty hones, "two" and "three lines" ones, and I think that describes the grit difference...

Nenad

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Originally Posted by gglockner

The hone I finished your shave-ready razor was a Honemaster from Tilly. I have been told that it is a finer grit than the 8K Norton. As for the Swaty's they were very popular, but be aware that there are some variance in the grits of different brands. I have found that one side may be better than the other.

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All of this is true, even among Swaty brand hones. THere are 2-line and 3-line hones, with the 3-line being finer. Also, the branded side of the hone tends to be a little finer.

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Originally Posted by cyrano138

shows what i know. i thought 'swaty' was the brand.

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It is, but the brand has been manufactured in different countries over the years, with some variation in grit.

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Originally Posted by superfly

Swaty IS the brand name. It was invented by Franz Swaty, from Maribor, ex Yugoslavia, in the beginning of the last century. There are different Swaty hones, "two" and "three lines" ones, and I think that describes the grit difference...

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If you check them out you'll see that later ones were made in Austria and even the US. There is some variation among them besides the number of lines.

apparently mine's made in jugoslavia. are there bad swaty's? like pakistani razors?

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Originally Posted by cyrano138

apparently mine's made in jugoslavia. are there bad swaty's? like pakistani razors?

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If it's a Swaty and it's in good condition, it's not bad. Those hones are very useable- quite fine and fast for that fine a hone.

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Originally Posted by cyrano138

eh.

i don't see any reason not to try and learn to use the norton, even if i don't need to use it regularly. has anyone on this board ever gotten a really close shave with a norton-only honed razor?

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The guys on here are all giving good advice. I can only speak for what works for me. Personally I think Lynn's tip about watching for the shiny edge is on the money. My Father in Law (F.I.L.) got a dovo from classic shaving and I honed it on the norton 4000/8000. I didn't have to worry about nicks on the edge of the blade so I went 3 complete pyramids to be safe (5/5, 3/3, 1/3, 1/3). I checked the shine on the honed portion of the cutting edge and didn't like it so I took 8 more swipes on each side of the blade on the 8000 side of the norton and it was nice and "purdy". All kinds of shine. It shaved like a dream after that.

I've been blessed to have Lynn in close driving distance. He gave me a really good honing and stropping lesson and I've been doing my best to follow his advice ever since and so far it's been working wonderfully.

Lynn is finishing up video on honing/stropping that will be available in some form soon. Don't despair. It took me a few months to hit the mark where when I honed it gave me a good enough shave that I was happy with it. Some people learn fast. I learned slow. :)

Glen F

Oh, I've also experimented with straight push versus the x pattern, i.e."slicing" the blade that most seem to equate with the "pyramid". both worked for me. I've also led the heel, i.e. the blade being a 45 degree angle with the heel coming down first. After Lynn posted about that I was able to get a couple buggered blades shaving nicely.

I thought the "slicing" motion was the x pattern and the pyramid was simply the switching grits (4000, 8000) back and forth, the 5/5, 3/3, 1/3, 1/3. Have I misunderstood that all this time?

Glen F

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Originally Posted by FUD

My Father in Law (F.I.L.) got a dovo from classic shaving and I honed it on the norton 4000/8000. I didn't have to worry about nicks on the edge of the blade so I went 3 complete pyramids to be safe (5/5, 3/3, 1/3, 1/3). I checked the shine on the honed portion of the cutting edge and didn't like it so I took 8 more swipes on each side of the blade on the 8000 side of the norton and it was nice and "purdy". All kinds of shine. It shaved like a dream after that.

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It sounds like an awful lot of honing for a new razor. They don't come shave ready, but they don't come totally dull either. I can't think of any time I've had to do more than a little work on a fine hone to ready a new razor.

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Originally Posted by FUD

I thought the "slicing" motion was the x pattern and the pyramid was simply the switching grits (4000, 8000) back and forth, the 5/5, 3/3, 1/3, 1/3. Have I misunderstood that all this time?

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This is right.

Unless you have a very short stone, they x-pattrn will not give you 45 degree lines, but more like 20 (with an 8 inch stone). So, you don't want to heel lead with a 45 degree angle, but tilt the blade back from the perpendicular about 20 degrees.

I've heard talk about the slicing motion of the x-pattern, but I wonder if it really matters or is just an issue of personal choice. A molecule siiting at the edge sees the grits coming at it at a 20 degree angle regardless of how you achieve it. Under a microscope the scratch patterns look identical. I've honed with heel leading and the x-pattern. If I use the same pressure I don't see the edge forming at a different rate. So, if the rate of material removal is the same and the result is the same, what would be the physical difference?

A bunch of new razors that have been sent to me all required more than that! His experience sounds pretty reasonable to me, not excessive at all.

Just my two cents,

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Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

It sounds like an awful lot of honing for a new razor. They don't come shave ready, but they don't come totally dull either. I can't think of any time I've had to do more than a little work on a fine hone to ready a new razor.

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