Thread: honing info for a newbie...

okay. so what happens if i get to the bottom of the honing period and the razor still just isn't cutting as close as i'd like it to? i got a shave ready razor from glen and it cuts much better. i'm reasonably sure i'm using the correct technique, though i'm a little unclear about how much pressure i should be applying to the razor during the honing process. currently, i'm only using enough to keep the razor flat on the stone. should i be using more?

since i just read through ten pages of that x pattern thread i'll just tell you now that i'm not using the x pattern. i push and pull straight across with the heel leading.

so i guess what i'm saying is, do i repeat the pyramid, or just continue with the 1/5's until it's ready? or is there another option?

...and another very specific question: on a 1/5, it's my understanding that the one pass on the 4k side is added to prevent over-honing by removing any wire edge that may have formed. does removing that wire edge also have a negative effect on the sharpening (ie is it like taking one step back, then five steps forward?)? hope my question is clear...

It depends...

Don't you just hate hearing that? How close is it? If close to your goal, do a couple of more 1/5's or 1/3's, testing between each one.

If it's still no where near shavable, start the pyramid over again.

If it's shaving well, but a bit rough, take it to your finishing stone or pasted strops to smooth things out a bit.

The relative sharpness of the blade will determine how far back in the process you need to go, just like the relative shape of a new e-bay special will determine where you need to start. For example, if I've got a nicked, dull, edge pitted restoration project, I'll typically tape the spine and take a few lapps on my 220 Norton (many would never take a razor to this stone no matter how rough it is, YMMV). If however, the edge is in pretty good shape, but oxidized just a bit, I'll take it to the Norton 1K to expose new steel and shape the bevel. If there is no oxidation and the bevel geometry looks good, I start with a pyramid on the 4/8K. If it is a shavable razor, I'll typically start with an 8K/coticule pyramid.

The trick is to never use more abrasive techniques than is necessary. How far you backtrack depend on how far you need to go.

Just another data point,
Ed

Originally Posted by cyrano138

okay. so what happens if i get to the bottom of the honing period and the razor still just isn't cutting as close as i'd like it to? i got a shave ready razor from glen and it cuts much better. i'm reasonably sure i'm using the correct technique, though i'm a little unclear about how much pressure i should be applying to the razor during the honing process. currently, i'm only using enough to keep the razor flat on the stone. should i be using more?

since i just read through ten pages of that x pattern thread i'll just tell you now that i'm not using the x pattern. i push and pull straight across with the heel leading.

so i guess what i'm saying is, do i repeat the pyramid, or just continue with the 1/5's until it's ready? or is there another option?

...and another very specific question: on a 1/5, it's my understanding that the one pass on the 4k side is added to prevent over-honing by removing any wire edge that may have formed. does removing that wire edge also have a negative effect on the sharpening (ie is it like taking one step back, then five steps forward?)? hope my question is clear...

Nobody tells you this, but the pyramid must not be used blindly. You need to evaluate the razor before starting and monitor it during the pyramid. It's very possible you honed too much on a razor that needed a little refreshing. For example, you could have gone past a wire edge and part way to keen.

I think you need to take stock and guess at how far you are from keen, and do a part of the pyramid accordingly. Alternatively, you could test the razor after every set in the pyramid to see if it's improving and stop when you're satisfied. You don't need to finish the pyramid. It may be a lot of testing before you have a better feel for how to use a pyramid.

Here's what I would do. Does the razor come close to passing a sharpness test? If so, proceed carefully. If not do a thumbnail test (classicshaving.com, "how to ... and why", the honing section). This will tell you whether the razor is dull, requires more sharpening, has a wire edge, or has chips. Continue accordingly.

the razor started as an out of box new dovo, so i haven't over-honed yet (i've been testing it quite often by shaving). it is getting incrementally better, but very slowly, and i think i've hit a plateau of sorts.

it shaves alright, just a bit rough compared to my shave-ready from glen, and i only have a norton 4k/8k (i'm reasonably sure i'm not ever going to buy pasted strops), so i'm pretty much stuck with the good ol' pyramid.

is it ever called for to modify the pyramid? for instance, to do a 1/10 or a series of something akin to them?

Originally Posted by cyrano138

the razor started as an out of box new dovo, so i haven't over-honed yet (i've been testing it quite often by shaving). it is getting incrementally better, but very slowly, and i think i've hit a plateau of sorts.

it shaves alright, just a bit rough compared to my shave-ready from glen, and i only have a norton 4k/8k (i'm reasonably sure i'm not ever going to buy pasted strops), so i'm pretty much stuck with the good ol' pyramid.

is it ever called for to modify the pyramid? for instance, to do a 1/10 or a series of something akin to them?

THe pyramid is there to help if you're not sure what you're doing. It sounds like you're on the right track. If the pyramid is having no effect, maybe you just need to work with the 8K until you max out the improvement. You may not be able to match the shave ready razor if it was done with a coticule or pasted strop.

Originally Posted by cyrano138

i'm reasonably sure i'm not ever going to buy pasted strops

This is probably a mistake. As Joe mentioned, your "shave ready" razor was almost certainly finished on something much finer than the norton, either a coticule or a 0.5 or 0.25 micron paddle, which is *much* finer than the 8k norton.

While there seems to be some agreement that the 4k/8k norton is sufficient, this is contingent on the honing chops of the user.

If you really don't want to use a paddle (and I'm not sure why, since they're so simple and effective), you will probably want to invest in a fine-grit finishing hone of some sort (search the forums for coticule, escher, lithide for more info).

what about a swaty? i've got one of those on the way.

That should work. Swaty's are small; you'll have to use the X pattern on it.

Joe Lerch on this board is convinced that if you do a couple of laps on a swaty every time you shave then you will never have to use a norton on it unless you somehow damage the edge. You might want to try this approach.

eh.

i don't see any reason not to try and learn to use the norton, even if i don't need to use it regularly. has anyone on this board ever gotten a really close shave with a norton-only honed razor?

The lithide you can get at Tilly's. You can also get "new" coticules. They are newly qaurried. They also have mixed reviews compared with the older ones. Swaty's probably from Ebay although I found mine at an antique store online. But I also paid too much for it.
Hope this helps a little