Thread: Carbon or sheffield steel?

My only inox is a G. Butler that has a very interesting combination of features: It's biconcave but very stiff and a curved blade. In any case it's not my favourite but I don't hate it either. Just a regular member of the rotation.

great. thanks for the info. ive read that carbon holds a better edge and ive also read that stainless does...so i was a little confused, but your post cleared that up for me.

thanks!

There is no such thing as surgical steel. There are steels used for surgical instruments and there are junk steels called surgical steel just because there is no requirement for a steel to be "surgical".

The Dovo razors, however, are of quality steel. They use 440c, which was the first of the super-stainless steels and was considered the finest stainless cutlery steel for a long time and still has marvelous edge taking and holding ability. I'm surprised that the steel is advertised as "surgical stainless" because that USUALLY means that it's junk steel like 420a.

I feel that the finest cutting edges are made of high grade non-stainless. Either a high carbon straight steel or a high carbon alloy steel. I don't feel that way because stainless steel is not a good blade material. In fact some is outstanding. I only feel that way because all steels are metalurgically designed to meet specific performance criteria and for stainless steel, the first and most important criteria is resistance to rust and corrosion, where carbon steels have no such first priority and so can be designed and alloyed for other properties like high speed performance - not very useful for shaving..... or for fine grain, high hardness and superior wear resistance - VERY useful properties for shaving.

Most carbon steels used for razors were straight steels with carbon over 1%.

Average hardness varied from 59 to 62 HRC.

The air hardening stainless and alloy steels are probably going to be more consistent in hardness except for those manufactured by thiers-issard, which is the only manufacturer still using the very consistent lead-treat process.

Originally Posted by PapaBull

I feel that the finest cutting edges are made of high grade non-stainless. Either a high carbon straight steel or a high carbon alloy steel. I don't feel that way because stainless steel is not a good blade material. In fact some is outstanding. I only feel that way because all steels are metalurgically designed to meet specific performance criteria and for stainless steel, the first and most important criteria is resistance to rust and corrosion, where carbon steels have no such first priority and so can be designed and alloyed for other properties like high speed performance - not very useful for shaving..... or for fine grain, high hardness and superior wear resistance - VERY useful properties for shaving.

Most carbon steels used for razors were straight steels with carbon over 1%.

Average hardness varied from 59 to 62 HRC.

I have to disagree that the first priority of a stainless steel is to resist corrosion.

The reason stainless steels resist corrosion is because they contain at least 10.5% chromium in their makeup. This chromium reacts with oxygen in the environment and forms a very thin layer of chromium oxide over the steel, which prevents corrsion. This layer is self renewing and therefore makes the steel corrsion resistant.
Most alloy steels contain some percentage of chromium. Just not enough to display corrsion resistant properties.

Stainless steels were created by added more chromium to the alloy. The reasons for this was to help the steels retain their mechanical charateristics at high temps. Chromium helps the steel becomes harder, stronger, increase tensile strength and resist wear.
When they found out that this made the steels very corrsion resistant, the name stuck. But that is the least important part of their characteristics.
I will spare you the mechanical engineering reasons why, but as far as razors go here is where they excel;

-Increase of toughness, which helps the very fine endge resist bending and breaking which causes the need for more frequent honing.
-Increase of wear resistance, which is really the best benefit because this allows the edge to stay sharper for more cycles of stress, or hair cutting, than steels with less chromium.

I this stainless steels, when selected properly can be some of the best razor steels used. I also belive that with alloy and high carbon steels. If you get a good breakdown of the alloying elements you can see which steels will perform better and why.

Enough of my stainless rant.

All steel has carbon in it.(here are just a few alloying elements)
-High carbon steels will be harder but less tough.
-Adding vanadium allows better hardenging through heat treating
-Nickel increases hardenss without removing any toughness of the steel(GOOD) also increase corrosion resistance.

Really! And why do they add the extra chromium, so it's not stainless? BTW, if you read about the use of stainless in knives, it actually makes a worse edge and doesn't retain it as long. The better performance in razors is due to the ice hardening.

Mechanical engineering isn't really on point here. What we're talking about is metallury.

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

Really! And why do they add the extra chromium, so it's not stainless? BTW, if you read about the use of stainless in knives, it actually makes a worse edge and doesn't retain it as long. The better performance in razors is due to the ice hardening.

Mechanical engineering isn't really on point here. What we're talking about is metallury.

The term stainless steel is thrown around too much. This causes confusiuon a lot.

My point was that when first developed, metalurgists did not add more chromium to make a steel that didn't rust. They added it because adding it already to steel makes the steel harder, more tough and allows for these mechanical properties to be held at high temperatures. They just added more than a normal alloy and realized that if a certain amount of the steel is chromium, that it will resist rust completely.

Most alloy steels have chromium in them, which helps the steel resist rust much better than plain iron. Just isnt enough to almost totally prevent it like stainless steels, which will rust just like a carbon steel can if severly abused. The reason it is added is for the mechanical properties it imparts.

Now that stainless steels are more defined, it really depends on which is better for which application. You can't go wrong with a good alloy steel though.

Not all stainless steel razors are ice hardened either. Most are because one of chromiums charateristics when added to steel is that it allows the steel to be hardened more without adding brittleness to the steel, but many stainless steel razors are not ice hardened.

Many good knifemakers make great knives from stainless steels, including Spyderco and Benchmade. A great new "stainless steel" which is a blend of chromium and molybednum along with carbon steel that prevents rust like stainless steels but is even better for knife blades is being used for kitchen knifes now. They are generally called High Carbon Stain Free Steel, but really are stainless steels when you look at the composition of them by ASM standards.


I will agree that the KIND of stainless really matters. If it is a cheap stainless steel then it will suck compared to a normal carbon steel, but quaility stainless steel will be as good if not better than a normal carbon if made correctly, heat treated and tempered correctly and the sharpener can sharpen them well.
You get what you pay for and if you pay the money for a good stainless, correct forging and treatment practices and a good sharpening, then your edge will hold longer and can be finer than a steel with less chromium in it.

Originally Posted by 72miura

Not all stainless steel razors are ice hardened either. Most are because one of chromiums charateristics when added to steel is that it allows the steel to be hardened more without adding brittleness to the steel, but many stainless steel razors are not ice hardened.

THe ones that are any good are frozen.

If you investigate the sites that rate culinary knives, you will find that they generally consider stainless knives (and these are fine quality) less sharp and less able to hold an edge. That's because so many of them are not freeze tempered. On the other hand if you look at the quality stainless razors, they all are.

One of the most knowledgeable guys on this, as far as razor steels go, is John Crowley. If you look back at the posts here and at the other SRP site you'll find some of his discussions.

That is true, and I think that any good razor should be cryo treated anyway. All steels can benefit from it.